As far as Bush goes, Bugliosi is as tough as they come. He’s angry at Bush for lying us into a war. The basis of the war was fabrications. How much more serious does it have to get than that to justify legal action.

Bush wasn’t compelled to run for president. He wasn’t compelled to lie about Iraq. He wasn’t compelled to enrich his cronies while the nation suffered. He wasn’t compelled to ruin the nation’s reputation around the world. He wasn’t compelled to conduct an invasion that he was warned would cause extreme civil discord and that did result in the deaths of 1.2 million Iraqi civilians as a result as his ignorance.

Doing something about it is proving that no man is above the law.

Deal with it.

I don’t like President Bush, but you know what? He’s our president and to SOME degree it’s common courtesy to show SOME form of respect to his office, even if not to him. This is why we get attacked, laughed at, and disrespect, we have no loyalty to our leaders and we allow ourselves to get bullied into thinking that we’re “idiots” for being loyal or “unpatriotic” for being free-thinkers.

Perhaps all of you should look at your own stands and wonder if that party loyalty/hate is the right thing to have. I wasn’t old enough to vote for Bush but I probably would have if I’d of been given the choice. I did not vote for Barack Obama but since he is, now, the president elect? I’ll respect his office.

Know this, overly 98% of you would most likely fold under the pressure Bush is under whether you believe that to be the truth or not. It’s not an easy job being either a savior or a scapegoat. Lol.

Should we, the American people, be prosecuted for murder as well? The diamonds we buy most likely come from Africa, paid for by blood. Should we be responsible for that? Should we be tried for cruelty to children for the clothes we buy? Promoting unsafe working conditions? Perhaps the entire world should be imprisoned for making choices.

Wait, that might offend all of your sensibilities. Choices aren’t easy to make on a personal level, much less a national level.

Get over it, quit fucking crying, or do something about it.

Submitted by Andrew Yu-Jen Wang
B.S., Summa Cum Laude, 1996
Messiah College, Grantham, PA
Lower Merion High School, Ardmore, PA, 1993

Max Shields raised a critical issue - is Iraq that far out of line with other adventures: “But with it is a haunting delusion that keeps me wondering: Is George W. Bush really that far off from the legacy that is America?”

And Sam expressed skepticism about the Democrats ability to do anything positive.

Barbara S offered some hope, with “Even if it begins as a modest effort, I must trust in my belief that others will follow suit and demand that we re-evaluate and reconstruct our broken system and government and will begin to rebuild it, with consideration for and in conjunction with our citizens and in the best interest of the country as a whole.”

How do Bush and others “get away with it” all the time, never face any consequences for their manifestly disgusting behavior? Two reasons. As Max Shields said, the Iraq war is not unprecedented. Look at the Philippines invasion and occupation and fast forward to Viet Nam. Those adventures were predicated on lies. The list of over 100 incursions into other countries builds the case. What makes Bush so unique, however, is the grossness of the enterprise. There was no national interest. There was no attack. All that we had was a stolen election in 2000 and a bunch of crooks who steal everything that isn’t nailed down. The excess of the event and the bold face lies make this unique with in a class of foreign adventures that were unjustified.

A second reason this was possible is the complicity of the Democratic leadership. Sam is right to say that “hope” in the Democrats is folly. 2006 was a classic bait and switch operation pulled off by Emanuel with the cynicism of P.T. Barnum but without the redeeming features of a great show. The Democrats who voted for this war knew what was happening. Only a few members of Congress went to see the White Paper on Iraq, a pack of lies, but the “evidence.” They knew and voted for the war anyway. Clinton’s speech is paradigmatic, Edwards a disgrace, and Kerry, my God!

Barbara S sees hope that there is a group of like minded people who will push for real change. In point of fact, Barbara S, good news - the majority share our views. Before the war 60% plus Republicans and 70% plus Democrats favored exhaustive inspections before invasion. They were not convinced that Iraq was an imminent danger to the U.S. Then the non stop lies started, supported by the complicit media, and the threats, particularly the nuclear option, were parlayed into public support based on fabrications.

Here’s what’s unique and beneficial about Bugliosi’s proposal. it does not rely on a huge national debate, which won’t happen due to the media Matrix operation. It doesn’t rely on cowardly politicians standing with the people. It just takes a motivated prosecutor, in a particular local and a grand jury. *It is the ultimate in citizens holding leaders responsible for their actions.* It can’t be stopped, especially where the District/States Attorney is elected. No fed will show up and show a badge demanding this stop. That can’t happen. Just think of it, a real trial in a real courtroom that will hold those responsible for this travesty to account by the law. No body disagrees that murder is a crime. Let the trial begin.

N.B. To Mike, I respect your opinion on responsibility and I’m aware of brave soldiers who have refused to go back to Iraq. Nevertheless, I maintain that, in practical terms, the soldiers are ultimately coerced in these situations but become fierce opponents of the same when in a position to do so. I like the Roman system in place for a period during the Republic - they voted on wars or the pirates of the late 1600’s who had a real democracy.

Max Shields raised a critical issue - is Iraq that far out of line with other adventures: “But with it is a haunting delusion that keeps me wondering: Is George W. Bush really that far off from the legacy that is America?”

And Sam expressed skepticism about the Democrats ability to do anything positive.

Barbara S offered some hope, with “Even if it begins as a modest effort, I must trust in my belief that others will follow suit and demand that we re-evaluate and reconstruct our broken system and government and will begin to rebuild it, with consideration for and in conjunction with our citizens and in the best interest of the country as a whole.”

How do Bush and others “get away with it” all the time, never face any consequences for their manifestly disgusting behavior? Two reasons. As Max Shields said, the Iraq war is not unprecedented. Look at the Phlilipinnes invasion and occupation and fast forward to Viet Nam. Those adventures were predicated on lies. The list of over 100 incursions into other countries builds the case. What makes Bush so unique, however, is the grossness of the enterprise. There was no national interest. There was no attack. All that we had was a stolen election in 2000 and a bunch of crooks who steal everything that isn’t nailed down. The excess of the event and the bold face lies make this unique with in a class of foreign adventures that were unjustified.

A second reason this was possible is the complicity of the Democratic leadership. Sam is right to say that “hope” in the Democrats is folly. 2006 was a classic bait and switch operation pulled off by Emanuel with the cynicism of P.T. Barnum but without the redeeming features of a great show. The Democrats who voted for this war knew what was happening. Only a few members of Congress went to see the White Paper on Iraq, a pack of lies, but the “evidence.” They knew and voted for the war anyway. Clinton’s speech is paradigmatic, Edwards a disgrace, and Kerry, my God!

Barbara S sees hope that there is a group of like minded people who will push for real change. In point of fact, Barbara S, good news - the majority share our views. Before the war 60% plus Republicans and 70% plus Democrats favored exhaustive inspections before invasion. They were not convinced that Iraq was an imminent danger to the U.S. Then the non stop lies started, supported by the complicit media, and the threats, particularly the nuclear option, were parlayed into public support based on fabrications.

Here’s what’s unique and beneficial about Bugliosi’s proposal. it does not rely on a huge national debate, which won’t happen due to the media Matrix operation. It doesn’t rely on cowardly politicians standing with the people. It just takes a motivated prosecutor, in a particular local and a grand jury. *It is the ultimate in citizens holding leaders responsible for their actions.* It can’t be stopped, especially where the District/States Attorney is elected. No fed will show up and show a badge demanding this stop. That can’t happen. Just think of it, a real trial in a real courtroom that will hold those responsible for this travesty to account by the law. No body disagrees that murder is a crime. Let the trial begin.

N.B. To Mike, I respect your opinion on responsibility and I’m aware of brave soldiers who have refused to go back to Iraq. Nevertheless, I maintain that, in practical terms, the soldiers are ultimately coerced in these situations but become fierce opponents of the same when in a position to do so. I like the Roman system in place for a period during the Republic - they voted on wars or the pirates of the late 1600’s who had a real democracy.

We do need to have a serious look at our two (primary) party system. It has not been working for quite some time and is no longer serving the people of our country or our democracy. I also agree that the shift of power in Congress, minimal as it was, has done nothing to assist in resolving our troubles. Congress has not done the appropraite, corrective job that many had hoped they would after the elections. As Mr. Collins stated several posts back, they do not care about the people. Their choices seem based purely on protecting their career, comfort and income.

If we sit here and debate about this and continue to habitually point out the mistakes and faults, with no plans, no vision, no suggestions and no ideas for action that might help to force accountability and correct the balance of power, or imbalance, as it were, what are we accomplishing? Complaining becomes part of the problem, if there is no intent or vision of changing that which we are complaining about.
What good will it do to assign blame without some plan, ANY plan of action to TRY to force necessary change?

All through the history of our country, there have been men and women who have hopes and a vision for the future and while their ideas may fail at first, eventually there is a catalyst that sparks change and change occurs. This will again be the case for America, at some point. My hope is sooner than later.

Call me what you will, but I choose not to expend my energy focusing on everything bad, without considering that there is also some good and that eventually another shift will occur and some balance will return to our government and our system. We need to see some victories for justice and re-enforce that we are a free nation of laws and equality. We have more power than our leaders would like us to believe and more power than many are willing to exert, but there are answers and solutions if we choose to work toward finding and employing them.

It was the vision of a handful of men who saw a better way of life, a better way to govern people and to create a balanced system which is what made America and made her different and a leader among nations. We have lost sight in the vision … because we have allowed and enabled a serious imbalance of power to steal away the very premise of our democracy and there will be no healing, no change, no return of balance and order in our society, until the power hungry criminals are brought to justice for all to see. If they can be brought to justice, that will restore some of the faith that our citizens have lost and will encourage people to be more watchful to assure that such an imbalanced shift can never occur again.

My comment of August 10th, 2008 at 9:44 pm was not intended for you necessarily. It was intended for anyone who reads it. If I had intended it specifically for you I would have addressed it to you.

I was simply relaying my experiences with Dem koolaid drinkers (that’s the large group who blindly support the Dead Democratic Party no matter what they do FOR the Bush regime). But my comment apparently touched a nerve for you to respond as you did. Perhaps you were part of that group around 2006 I wrote about in that comment? I don’t know. But if so, all I have to say in response is: the truth hurts doesn’t it?

I know you were trying to be sarcastic and smug, but it took absolutely no “superior intellect or insight” on my part (and those who shared my view) to understand before the 2006 “election” that NOTHING WAS GOING TO CHANGE by making Dems the majority. Period. I had seen them enable Bush/Cheney/Rove with their “yes” votes, their complicity and silence since 2000. So why would I believe that the Dems were going to flip and do a “180″ and overnight stop enabling Bush just because they were now in the majority? LOL. And since the 2006 “election” NOTHING has changed. It has only gotten worse with every passing day since because the pro-war, pro-corporate, pro-Bush, pro-torture, pro-spying on US citizens, pro-USAPATRIOT ACT, pro-Alito, pro-Roberts Democratic Party is DEAD as far as working for We The People. They work for the Bush regime and have since 2000 and it’s time that these thick Dems koolaid drinking suckers realize that, but most of them are not about to because they were programmed with that party-line D at a very early age and that’s all they know and can think, just like other people were programmed with that party-line R at a very age. And when most people can’t think beyond D or R, nothing is going to change in this nation. It’s part of their programming just like the belief in a supreme being is part of most people’s programming. Try to deprogramme THAT. Good luck. Ain’t going to happen with most people.

It takes no “superior intellect or insight” on my part to see any of this. I just look at the reality, and that’s what I (and others) see. Other people could see this, if they want to. But most Dems supporters refuse to see it. They want so hard to believe in their beloved Dems who are really Repugs with a big D behind their name.

It’s long past due that people see the Dem politicians for who and what they are, and NOT who and what people want and expect them to be, because the latter is not going to happen judging by all the rabid Walk-On-Water Obama supporters who have completely bought into this man’s hope and change bullshit.

Also, I don’t necessarily think of Dem koolaid drinkers as “Liberals” even though many of them will claim to be. In part, because they will often make excuses and apologies for their Bush-enabling politicians NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO FOR BUSH/CHENEY. Well, that makes them (the Dem supporters) enablers of Bush/Cheney as well. It’s “Liberal” to help Bush and Cheney continue the formation of their Dictatorship? I-don’t-think-so.

I presented my position(s) and I read yours. I just don’t agree with yours.

Your response to me is very typical of how the Dem koolaid drinkers respond to me. That’s usually how they respond with a smug “oh you are so intelligent Sam, and have such superior intellect and we are so stupid.”

Well, based on their actions and behavior since 2000 I’d have to agree with the last part. The Dem koolaid drinkers are pretty damn thick. They are as useless as the D politicians they support. They are blinded by that big D. And talking with them is like talking to a brick wall, regardless of the approach one uses.

The Definition of Insanity:

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Like voting for Dems one “election” cycle after the other and expecting a different result. Duh.

As for the Repugs, unfortunately they get their agenda rammed through congress whether they are in the minority or the majority. The same cannot be said about the useless and worthless Dems whatsoever. They enable the Repugs whether they (the Dems) are in the minority or the majority.

——————- Nader/Gonzalez 2008, if there is an “election.”

I have seen this occur on far too many blogs to be party to continuing to try to debate with someone who obviously possesses such superior intellect and insight. Your opinions are right and all others are wrong.
I concede! Have a pleasant evening … I am off to watch American Idol.

Whether other presidents have also instigated illegal wars is immaterial. At some point, Americans MUST put an end to unconstitutional criminality by its leaders to set ourselves back on a just and righteous path. To say that we strayed under past leadership is a poor reason to continue the same direction. VB isn’t justifying the past — he’s simply saying, “Enough is enough!”

Michael Collins: I disagree that soldiers “had no choice.” You always have a choice, its just a matter of what you’re willing to risk for honor. Soldiers never agree to defend the administration’s policies or even their country — their oath is to “protect and defend the Constitution.” If they’re convinced that this war is unconstitutional, they have a moral duty to refuse to fight and take the consequences. We didn’t accept “just following orders” in Nuremberg and we shouldn’t accept it now.

I remember before the 2006 “election” the Dem koolaid drinkers had convinced themselves that it was critical to put the Dems in the majority in congress because the Dems would supposedly do a “180″ overnight (according to them) and stop enabling Bush just because they had more people with a big D behind their name among their ranks.

I said that was bullshit. I said that the Dems could have every seat in the House and Senate and not a damn thing would change. The Dem koolaid drinkers called me and others “negative, hopeless, and complacent.”

The Dem koolaid drinkers said Pelosi wasn’t serious when she said “impeachment is off the table.” They said she was just saying that to “play the game to fool the Repugs” And that “you’ll see…Bush will be impeached with Dems in the majority and Pelosi as speaker.”

I said that was also bullshit. I said Pelosi was absolutely serious when she said (several times) “impeachment is off the table.” I told them that the Dems were not about to impeach the very people (Bush/Cheney) they had been enabling since 2000 because they would implicate themselves in any impeachment hearings.

The Dem koolaid drinkers again called me “negative, hopeless and complacent” and they said I didn’t know what the hell I was talking about.

Then six to eight months after the Dems became the majority I asked the loony Dem koolaid drinkers why their beloved Dems weren’t doing anything, other than to continue to enable Bush. They excused the Dems in congress by saying:

“You have to give them tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime. They just became the majority. They need tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime.”

I told them, “you’ll be saying that tired line 2 years from now.”

I was again called “negative.”

Today, the Dem koolaid drinkers look like the damn fools they were/are living with their illusions, delusions and grandiose head-in-the-clouds wishful-thinking and false hope about their precious Dems.

But they didn’t learn a damn thing from that experience because today they are mindlessly changing:

Gotta vote Obama. Gotta vote Dem.

The suckers. Some people never learn.

And “we” are still waiting for The People to get upset enough to do something about all of this.

Oh, but nevermind, there’s “American Idol” and “Big Brother” and endless streams of sports on all media. And you ask someone about Cindy Sheehan or Dennis Kucinich and people have never heard of either! … and they don’t know that anything is going wrong in this country at all.

[You wrote:

“We have thousands of municipal and state judges across this nation and if enough accept indictments there will be action of some sort.”

When has this ever happened in the past?]

I do not recall the American people being quite so angry, frustrated and disillusioned as we find ourselves now and over the events of this past 7 1/2 years. Desperation and a general feeling of total impotence can lead to the evolution of plans and actions that were only previously a passing thought or fantasy.

I would hope that as intelligent humans, we would exert all power, ability and energy to prevent actions like the supposition you mention, from becoming reality. As I stated some posts back, we are a nation of over 300 million people. Surely we would find a way to reign in the maniacal actions of a few hundred zealots?

I must admit, however, that I have found myself developing scenarios in my head in recent months, of how this administration might plan and execute an attack on Iran, instigating a retaliatory (nuclear?) attack … or even more frightening, a homegrown, catastophic event on our own soil that would lead to the justification of declaring marshall law and the premise for them to execute such supreme measures of grabbing infinite power and control. I push these thoughts from my head quickly as I can’t conceive that something so sinister could actually happen in this country. Call it idealistic, naive or denial, but I truly wish to believe that these thoughts are indeed paranoia and not probable.

What you call “negative, hopeless and complacent,” I call realistic and pragmatic.

I’m a realist. I could engage in all kinds of head-in-the-clouds wishful-thinking and false hope, but I know it would be futile to do so based on what I’ve seen since 2000.

You wrote:

“What is to stop future administrations…”

Oh you think there will be a future one, do you? There may be but I wouldn’t bet on it. I don’t think the illegitimate Bush regime is going anywhere. Even if they physically leave, they are not going anywhere. They didn’t steal 2 presidential “elections” just to willingly and easily turn their increasing Dictatorship over to somebody else, unless they are quite confident that a new person will continue the Dictatorship. They didn’t put Directive 51 in place without any intention of ever using it.

You wrote:

“We have thousands of municipal and state judges across this nation and if enough accept indictments there will be action of some sort.”

When has this ever happened in the past?

Regarding Bush, I would tend to agree that there is cause for concern if indeed he is annointing himself and his Administration with additionl, far reaching power at this late stage in his Presidency.

IMHO, regarding Obama, he is just another politician who has found a way to use motivational speaking to sway many into believing that he is different and holds the key to correcting the transgressions of the “typical D.C. mentality.” HOGWASH! The rhetoric and claim of change we can believe in, coming from any political entity, is a facade and THAT is syrupy false hope!

Everyone is entitled to their own political opinions and choices. The following is mine. There are NO politicians who can walk into office and fix these messes in 4-8 years. It would not serve their political longevity to do so, which depletes the desire and possibility that most of our politicians would entertain any intent to participate in the criminalization of a political colleague. It would hit too close to home for most of them.

The answers to rectifying these issues are not political answers. These politicians used their power and position to accomplish stretching, coloring, bending and breaking our laws, but nonetheless, they still broke LAWS and that becomes a judicial issue. NO citizen is exempt from following the laws of the US.

The politicians have become professional salary collectors who do not give a rip about anyone outside of their own families, the special interest groups that shower them with extra comforts and possibly their bankers.

I DO hold hope and faith in our judicial system. Local juridictions have the right and responsibility, as Mr. Bugliosi points out, to file their own charges for the deaths of each one of their citizens that occurred as a result of these illegal occupations and attacks. The higher, Federal court judges who have been selected and who seem to function in accord with their party and it’s political pressure, cannot silence the entire judiciary of 50 states. Not to imply that all would participate, but if enough do there will be notoriety, publicity and action and more people will become enlightened and aware, which is bound to apply additional pressure.

These are not false, syrupy hopes, but true possibilities and realistic options and it is up to each of us, you and I, to speak out and encourage our local officials and judiciary to use the power that they have. They have a responsibility to honor the will of the people they serve and give serious evaluation to the possibility of criminal prosecution and charges of murder.

We have thousands of municipal and state judges across this nation and if enough accept indictments there will be action of some sort. There needs to be a starting point. This book and Mr. Bugliosi’s suggestions, organization of legal points, testimony and display of facts are the best that I have seen thus far. There are few of our countrymen/women that are stepping forward with concrete suggestions and this is one worthy of examination and effort!

Remaining silent, negative, hopeless and complacent only adds to the problem and does nothing to attempt to resolve it. It most certainly encourages continued lawlessness. What is to stop future administrations from carrying these choices and illegal actions to the next level if we do not hold accountable those who have committed, permitted and encouraged the rogue, lawless actions that have already been perpetrated?

Ain’t going to happen now or in the future, unfortunately. And likely the same for Tony Blair.

I have little patience for all this wishful-thinking and syrupy false hope.

I’ve heard the rabid Obama loons speaking about “holding his feet to the fire.” That has worked so splendidly since 2000 hasn’t it with all these other Bush-enabling Dems, such as Pelosi? I’ve notice this “we” is really holding Pelosi’s feet to the fire on impeachment and murder. The woman doesn’t give a damn what “we” think. Ain’t gonna happen. As Mike Malloy asks: “HOW do you hold a politician’s feet to the fire?”

We are living in a very different time and place now than in any place in history for this nation. So people can drag up history and historical events from the past but those days don’t really apply to today because we are living in an increasing Dictatorship today. It’s a very different time.

The fact is these scum of the Earth politicians don’t give a damn what any of us think. Period. So all of this “we must do ” and “we can do” is all bull shit dreamy wishful-thinking. I’ve been hearing this crap since 2000 and look at the state of things. How much more does one need to see to grasp that these people don’t care what “we” think? And this “we” group is very small in the big scheme of things. Most people aren’t even paying attention to what’s going on. They’re more concerned with when “American Idol” is on.

Following the 2000 stolen “election” a few people protested nationwide in cities. I took part in the protest in my city and we were told to “get over it.” There were no protest following the 2004 stolen “election.” Bush-enabler John Kerry couldn’t get to the microphone fast enough to concede to Bush.

Some people write as if we are still in the days of “politics as usual.” We aren’t. Those days ended the night of the 2000 Judicial Coup when these criminals were selected to reside in the White House. Bush and Cheney may leave in January 2009 but I’m not expecting them to and there is no one to force them to leave. Just the other day (this past Thursday or Friday) there was an article on a credible news site saying that Bush had given himself MORE secret powers. Does that sound like someone who has any intention of leaving to you? Exactly WHY would Bush need more secret powers if he supposedly only has roughly 5 months remaining?

We can only hope that while we sit here and discuss and debate and while we see a possibility for action, any action that would be pro-change, we can also assume that there are many more like us and that somewhere within the numbers there will be those who have the power, ability and will to fashion a change. Even if it begins as a modest effort, I must trust in my belief that others will follow suit and demand that we re-evaluate and reconstruct our broken system and government and will begin to rebuild it, with consideration for and in conjuction with our citizens and in the best interest of the country as a whole. I know it seems a bit idealistic, but we are a people of many, with intelligence, dignity, integrity and justice still remaining as integral parts of our belief system and I trust that there will be those who will step forward and assist in reversing some of the damage.

Pain and loss are extreme motivating factors for people and we are a country filled with extreme pain and loss.

Just a clarification, I didn’t say that I doubted that there was the capacity for prosecution. The wheels of justice, particularly once GWB is out of office - do tend to move. What I doubt is the capacity to “dismantle the war machine”. Short of that the imperial empire lives on.

It could very well be that the necessary impetus to take on fundamental change will happen. We had some of that post Vietnam/Watergate, but the empire was still in tact and reared its ugly head to fight another day.

The EU has made some headway in this direction given the destruction of WWI and WWII.