Comments on: Reverse Shock Doctrine http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/reverse-shock-doctrine/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Sat, 22 Nov 2008 17:34:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: John Merryman http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/reverse-shock-doctrine/#comment-28547 John Merryman Sun, 21 Sep 2008 01:52:26 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2281#comment-28547 Db, There are a broad range of possible exchange systems, some already in operation. Here is a website for setting them up, http://www.transaction.net/money/rocs/. There are also some very good economists working on the subject. Bernard Lietaer, http://www.lietaer.com/, is one of the best known. Ellen Brown develops the idea of public banking quite extensively: http://webofdebt.wordpress.com/monetary-proposal/ In the natural order a conspiracy is simply the layer of the food chain, or the level of emergent phenomena above yours. Just as humans manipulate the natural world, there are levels of society which manipulate those less organized than they are. This top emergent level used to be religious and political, now it is economic and financial, with politics and religion being used as tools. The problem they face is that in a collapsing ecosystem, highly specialized top predators are vulnerable. This opens the door to other possibilities. In the interaction of bottom up growth and top down order, when the order can no longer define the growth, it is shed like dead skin and the growth expands till it solidifies into a new form. Hopefully it's not human civilization which is shed, just our current monetary/economic practices and the detrimental environmental costs they impose. We live in interesting times... Db,

There are a broad range of possible exchange systems, some already in operation. Here is a website for setting them up, http://www.transaction.net/money/rocs/.

There are also some very good economists working on the subject. Bernard Lietaer, http://www.lietaer.com/, is one of the best known.

Ellen Brown develops the idea of public banking quite extensively: http://webofdebt.wordpress.com/monetary-proposal/

In the natural order a conspiracy is simply the layer of the food chain, or the level of emergent phenomena above yours. Just as humans manipulate the natural world, there are levels of society which manipulate those less organized than they are. This top emergent level used to be religious and political, now it is economic and financial, with politics and religion being used as tools.
The problem they face is that in a collapsing ecosystem, highly specialized top predators are vulnerable. This opens the door to other possibilities. In the interaction of bottom up growth and top down order, when the order can no longer define the growth, it is shed like dead skin and the growth expands till it solidifies into a new form. Hopefully it’s not human civilization which is shed, just our current monetary/economic practices and the detrimental environmental costs they impose.

We live in interesting times…

]]> By: Deadbeat http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/reverse-shock-doctrine/#comment-28541 Deadbeat Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:37:40 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2281#comment-28541 I'm surprised no one brought up <a href="http://www.ithacahours.org" rel="nofollow">Ithaca Hours</a>. This is a possible solution that has been in practice. I’m surprised no one brought up Ithaca Hours. This is a possible solution that has been in practice.

]]> By: John Merryman http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/reverse-shock-doctrine/#comment-28246 John Merryman Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:18:07 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2281#comment-28246 Paul, Thank you for the anecdote. Roosevelt had a clear view of the situation. The people in charge today can't see beyond the teleprompter. Money is a tool that can be used for great good, or it can be abused and broken. In which case, we will be up the creek without a paddle. As of today, the 15th of September, we are. Paul,

Thank you for the anecdote. Roosevelt had a clear view of the situation. The people in charge today can’t see beyond the teleprompter.

Money is a tool that can be used for great good, or it can be abused and broken. In which case, we will be up the creek without a paddle.
As of today, the 15th of September, we are.

]]> By: Paul Condon http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/reverse-shock-doctrine/#comment-28211 Paul Condon Mon, 15 Sep 2008 05:54:16 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2281#comment-28211 I have a personal anecdote concerining privatization of social security: In my youth my family lived in Washington, DC. My father was in the government of Harry Truman. My parents were personal friends of Gifford and Lila Pinchot, who kept a rather grand house in Washingon, and a rather grander house in the country near Milford, PA. I remember an occasion on which Lila was reminiscing about the early days of setting up social security, and the reasoning that went into deciding NOT to establish it 'on a sound actuarial basis'. She said that FDR's advisors realized that if they collected enough money for actuarial soundness, they would have nothing to do with it other than placing it at risk on Wall Street. And that would have been foolhardy, because the trust fund would certainly lose its money to slick Wall Street brokers. Of course that could not be part of the official justification because Wall Street brokers were voters and it wouldn't do to accuse wealthy members of the moneyed class of being crooks. She was smart. FDR's advisers were especially smart. Imagine the fix we would be in now if the decision had been the other way! It appears to me that they were actually doing what you advocate for the reason that you give. I have a personal anecdote concerining privatization of social security: In my youth my family lived in Washington, DC. My father was in the government of Harry Truman. My parents were personal friends of Gifford and Lila Pinchot, who kept a rather grand house in Washingon, and a rather grander house in the country near Milford, PA. I remember an occasion on which Lila was reminiscing about the early days of setting up social security, and the reasoning that went into deciding NOT to establish it ‘on a sound actuarial basis’. She said that FDR’s advisors realized that if they collected enough money for actuarial soundness, they would have nothing to do with it other than placing it at risk on Wall Street. And that would have been foolhardy, because the trust fund would certainly lose its money to slick Wall Street brokers. Of course that could not be part of the official justification because Wall Street brokers were voters and it wouldn’t do to accuse wealthy members of the moneyed class of being crooks. She was smart. FDR’s advisers were especially smart.

Imagine the fix we would be in now if the decision had been the other way! It appears to me that they were actually doing what you advocate for the reason that you give.

]]> By: John Merryman http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/reverse-shock-doctrine/#comment-26034 John Merryman Sat, 09 Aug 2008 01:12:19 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2281#comment-26034 John, I have no problem with community currencies, but we live in a far more complex and interconnected economy than that of the thirties. The question is as to what the next step will be from where we are at the moment. The function of a currency is to provide interchangeability, so local currencies would be seriously limited in their application. The fact is that US taxpayers are responsible for maintaining the value of the national currency, so the rewards should be effectively nationalized as well. If in a more organic society, other mediums of exchange evolve, they should be encouraged in order to expand the range of connectivity. John,

I have no problem with community currencies, but we live in a far more complex and interconnected economy than that of the thirties. The question is as to what the next step will be from where we are at the moment. The function of a currency is to provide interchangeability, so local currencies would be seriously limited in their application.
The fact is that US taxpayers are responsible for maintaining the value of the national currency, so the rewards should be effectively nationalized as well.
If in a more organic society, other mediums of exchange evolve, they should be encouraged in order to expand the range of connectivity.

]]> By: John Rogers http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/reverse-shock-doctrine/#comment-24411 John Rogers Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:37:05 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2281#comment-24411 Yes, currency as a medium of exchange may be seen as a commons that turns into a desert if currency as a store of value takes over. That is one definition of the Great Depression of the 30s: flight of currency from the exchange commons. Roosevelt closed down all the local scrip currencies overnight that could have taken the US out of the Depression "in 3 weeks" according to leading economist of the day Irving Fisher (source: Bernard Lietaer, Future of Money). Community currencies maximise the exchange and circulation functions to increase the 'multiplier effect' in any given community that adopts one. As we get better at designing and organising these lifeboats we will have some genuine alternatives to cling to. Lots of resources about this movement at my website: www.valueforpeople.co.uk Yes, currency as a medium of exchange may be seen as a commons that turns into a desert if currency as a store of value takes over. That is one definition of the Great Depression of the 30s: flight of currency from the exchange commons. Roosevelt closed down all the local scrip currencies overnight that could have taken the US out of the Depression “in 3 weeks” according to leading economist of the day Irving Fisher (source: Bernard Lietaer, Future of Money).

Community currencies maximise the exchange and circulation functions to increase the ‘multiplier effect’ in any given community that adopts one. As we get better at designing and organising these lifeboats we will have some genuine alternatives to cling to. Lots of resources about this movement at my website: http://www.valueforpeople.co.uk

]]> By: John Merryman http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/reverse-shock-doctrine/#comment-23798 John Merryman Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:46:02 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2281#comment-23798 hp, The logical fallacy of monotheism is the assumption that the universal state of the absolute would be the conceptual apex, when it is the conceptual basis. So the spiritual absolute, should you care to believe in one, would be the raw essence of awareness from which we rise, not an ideal form from which we fell. (Down with Plato!) Of course it is politically useful for those at the top of the social order to maintain a top down theology, as it validates top down political order, from the divine right of kings to W's gut instinct, as well as top down economic order, such as trickle down theory. While all structure must have some singular focus in order to maintain basic integrity, none is unique and all proceed through a basic life cycle that depends on a healthy bottom up process and environment in order to survive. Currently humanity is top predator in a collapsing ecosystem and in order to continue, we must find a way to transition into being the central nervous system of the planetary organism. Otherwise we really are toast. There is a point in ones life where the parent goes from being the model one follows to being the foundation one rises from. We've about used up all the protein in this egg and it's time to hatch. Max, Yes, money is the lubricant, not the fuel. I certainly wouldn't argue against any number of mediums of exchange. The more diverse they are, the more resilient the economy would be. Part of my argument is that if we begin to understand money doesn't constitute personal property, any more than one owns the section of road one is traveling on, this would seriously reduce the power of money over human interaction and thinking and people would begin developing and strengthening other social and mental connections. I do think some form of larger national or internationally accepted currencies are necessary to keep the larger world integrated and mitigate regional conflicts. siamdave, I agree that we are being pulled around by those who control the currency, but some form of currency is necessary to maintain even the most basic economies. The question is how to leverage the current crisis in the most effective way possible to break down the current system. That it is in the process of self destruction may prove to be a big advantage, but some model does have to be developed to provide the next step, or we fall backward and that's a long way down. Back to work... Regards, John hp,

The logical fallacy of monotheism is the assumption that the universal state of the absolute would be the conceptual apex, when it is the conceptual basis. So the spiritual absolute, should you care to believe in one, would be the raw essence of awareness from which we rise, not an ideal form from which we fell. (Down with Plato!)
Of course it is politically useful for those at the top of the social order to maintain a top down theology, as it validates top down political order, from the divine right of kings to W’s gut instinct, as well as top down economic order, such as trickle down theory. While all structure must have some singular focus in order to maintain basic integrity, none is unique and all proceed through a basic life cycle that depends on a healthy bottom up process and environment in order to survive. Currently humanity is top predator in a collapsing ecosystem and in order to continue, we must find a way to transition into being the central nervous system of the planetary organism. Otherwise we really are toast.
There is a point in ones life where the parent goes from being the model one follows to being the foundation one rises from. We’ve about used up all the protein in this egg and it’s time to hatch.

Max,

Yes, money is the lubricant, not the fuel. I certainly wouldn’t argue against any number of mediums of exchange. The more diverse they are, the more resilient the economy would be. Part of my argument is that if we begin to understand money doesn’t constitute personal property, any more than one owns the section of road one is traveling on, this would seriously reduce the power of money over human interaction and thinking and people would begin developing and strengthening other social and mental connections. I do think some form of larger national or internationally accepted currencies are necessary to keep the larger world integrated and mitigate regional conflicts.

siamdave,

I agree that we are being pulled around by those who control the currency, but some form of currency is necessary to maintain even the most basic economies. The question is how to leverage the current crisis in the most effective way possible to break down the current system. That it is in the process of self destruction may prove to be a big advantage, but some model does have to be developed to provide the next step, or we fall backward and that’s a long way down.

Back to work…

Regards,

John

]]> By: siamdave http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/reverse-shock-doctrine/#comment-23787 siamdave Sat, 05 Jul 2008 05:23:41 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2281#comment-23787 - some good thoughts, but a fair amount of fallacy as well. The problem is not money per se, but the fact that the control of money in our 'modern democracies' is in the hands of a small group of people who manipulate the money supply for their own personal gain - and that very few people seem to be aware of this. We require democratic control of the money, and a better understanding of what it is in general, which is very much lacking these days. Spelled out in a bit more detail at Banketeering - how the banks have been stealing trillions from you, and the tap is still running http://www.rudemacedon.ca/dlp/box/box01-money.html - some good thoughts, but a fair amount of fallacy as well. The problem is not money per se, but the fact that the control of money in our ‘modern democracies’ is in the hands of a small group of people who manipulate the money supply for their own personal gain - and that very few people seem to be aware of this. We require democratic control of the money, and a better understanding of what it is in general, which is very much lacking these days. Spelled out in a bit more detail at Banketeering - how the banks have been stealing trillions from you, and the tap is still running http://www.rudemacedon.ca/dlp/box/box01-money.html

]]> By: Max Shields http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/reverse-shock-doctrine/#comment-23784 Max Shields Sat, 05 Jul 2008 03:15:33 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2281#comment-23784 Mr. Merryman, Thank you for your post. Few things, in economic terms money is not wealth. Wealth is the product of labor, resources and capital. The concern of privatization of the commons is a critical concern and one that has been a human struggle for the better part of 5 millenium or so, and getting worse with each century. The real concern is not ownership per se but monopolistic ownership - the roads, river-ways, air-waves, access to vital resources (water, land, energy...), utilities, and other commons essential for the shared well-being of all. Therefore, government (as local as possible) needs to oversee these commons. The earth should NOT be for sale, but what you "make" you have a right to own. Our common wealth would be sufficient to provide a stipend to all citizens across the board. This is called a Citizen Dividends (http://www.earthrights.net/docs/oilrent.html). Check it out. Back to money, if we are to understand it I think we need to understand the legacy of currency and its recent (1913) nationalization with the creation of the Federal Reserve. This up-rooted the valuable role of currency - to check a city's or city region's balance of trade. That's been lost with legal tender. I would consider opportunies to: 1) establish local currencies (will be critical as the dollar becomes worthless) 2) establish time-banking that exchange based on time banked in community work as well as providing goods and services. This is not taxable and is a powerful means of building communites. As much as possible search for the many ways to eliminate money altogether. There are many things that we need which can be obtained when we re-think our community and local economy. This is not idle talk. It's happening and vital given what appears to be the collapse of the US empire's economy. Mr. Merryman,

Thank you for your post. Few things, in economic terms money is not wealth. Wealth is the product of labor, resources and capital.

The concern of privatization of the commons is a critical concern and one that has been a human struggle for the better part of 5 millenium or so, and getting worse with each century. The real concern is not ownership per se but monopolistic ownership - the roads, river-ways, air-waves, access to vital resources (water, land, energy…), utilities, and other commons essential for the shared well-being of all. Therefore, government (as local as possible) needs to oversee these commons. The earth should NOT be for sale, but what you “make” you have a right to own.

Our common wealth would be sufficient to provide a stipend to all citizens across the board. This is called a Citizen Dividends (http://www.earthrights.net/docs/oilrent.html). Check it out.

Back to money, if we are to understand it I think we need to understand the legacy of currency and its recent (1913) nationalization with the creation of the Federal Reserve. This up-rooted the valuable role of currency - to check a city’s or city region’s balance of trade. That’s been lost with legal tender.

I would consider opportunies to: 1) establish local currencies (will be critical as the dollar becomes worthless) 2) establish time-banking that exchange based on time banked in community work as well as providing goods and services. This is not taxable and is a powerful means of building communites.

As much as possible search for the many ways to eliminate money altogether. There are many things that we need which can be obtained when we re-think our community and local economy. This is not idle talk. It’s happening and vital given what appears to be the collapse of the US empire’s economy.

]]> By: hp http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/07/reverse-shock-doctrine/#comment-23769 hp Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:49:33 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2281#comment-23769 Well here's free money. Billions which are immune to any rules, regulations, market conditions or acts of God. While our amputated veterans struggle to survive, homeless citizens everywhere, food kitchens opening up and the unemployed increasing, there is one thing which will not be denied.. Tribute to Israel. http://www.forward.com/articles/13709/ Well here’s free money. Billions which are immune to any rules, regulations, market conditions or acts of God.
While our amputated veterans struggle to survive, homeless citizens everywhere, food kitchens opening up and the unemployed increasing, there is one thing which will not be denied..
Tribute to Israel.

http://www.forward.com/articles/13709/

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