Israel is not a friendless country when there are so many jewish people in high places in various countries.

As for Lebanon, etc., not having the bomb, i really don’t know what this discussion is about. OK, the US was once a “poor” country militarily, we had to be helped by France in order to get the independence from the British. So, are you claiming that, therefore, the US cannot possibly be in possession of a nuclear weapon? If a country is sufficiently organized, have a certain population (thus the talent pool — and world wide “soldiers” like Israel does) and is sufficiently dead set on such a course, and all kinds of other conditions are met (they don’t care if there are sanctions, if there’s a military intervention, etc., they’re prepared to keep this up for DECADES, and prepared to squash other priorities) then the country can have the nuclear weapon — there are sufficient resources in even a small and “poor” country, esp. if you take from people’s mouths to feed the military (N. Korea); provided they don’t get invaded beforehand.

Look at North Korea – they were not helped by anyone, do a little research. Yes, Pakistani Khan tried to help them, but he was selling enrichment technologies, but they have the plutonium bomb, not the HEU (highly enriched uranium) one. (OK, that first test wasn’t a total success, but they’re well on the way). And on top of that, they have designed and built several generations of sophisticated missiles, very long range ones, to the point that we’re afraid they’ll be intercontinental soon (if they’re not already). Iran, too, has designed and built sophisticated missiles. Now, yes, Lebanon and Sudan have not done any of those things, there’s too much chaos in those countries. And even if there weren’t chaos, maybe their leadership would have other priorities, the wmd’s require long lead times (decades) and sacrifices; and require a certain technological base in the country. It takes a lot of effort to try to stave off the IAEA, etc. In any case, Israel didn’t have to develop these weapons, which is the hardest part. What happened with
France (which also supplied the Dimona reactor), I don’t know and don’t have the time. Of course, the French were playing their own game, which at that point was at cross-purpose with the Americans. (At that time, they still had dreams of their empire, etc.) Or maybe the design was stolen and not given away voluntarily. Could they have done it on their own? I don’t know, and I don’t think it’s pertinent to what Israel does TODAY and its relationship and balance of power with the US TODAY. Yesterday, Britain and France were powers to be reckoned with, but not TODAY (at least not nearly to the same extent); things CHANGE.

About Israel being someone’s foothold in Asia: do you really think that these industrialists, capitalists, (and especially POLITICIANS) etc., have such patience, such long time horizons, such planning abilities? Look at the long list of sorry evidence of them being concerned only about
tomorrow and only about themselves and having half-assed plans even in the best of circumstances. And a million things can go wrong with such a plan over such a long time (and they — most of them, have enough brains to see that). And what about documentary evidence in any of these countries — something would have come to light by now. This reminds me how over there – in Europe, and probably elsewhere, the US is blamed for EVERYTHING. We’re the Borg, the mysterious (but malignant) creatures who always have perfect (but abominable) plans,
whose plans always work out to a T, who have infiltrated and corrupted everything, and who have supernatural powers and knowledge. For example, many people, SERIOUSLY blame the US for creating that tsunami in the Indian ocean a couple years ago. Not to mention, every war, every coup, every bad thing (never a good thing), the US is ALWAYS to blame for that, even in the absence of any evidence. Not that there aren’t bad things we do, I’m just saying how these theories have gone to the extreme.

In WW2, we in Yugoslavia were “terrorists” against the Germans. Ditto for the French and other resistance movements.

B4 Israel became a country, there were hotel bombings and other similar acts (I assume NOT terrorist acts) by jewish (zionist?) “freedom fighters”, who later assumed the highest positions within the israeli govt, like prime ministers (begin as an example). They used the exact same methods against the british.

not to mention massacres of palestinians and what’s ongoing there now, those are not “terrorist” acts.

iraq got what it deserved? so, a million dead was a fair price to pay? and let’s do the same to iran, let’s make it at least 5 million dead there. after all they are muslims, and the worst kind at that.

I see, the palestinians should just buy a bunch of F-22s (300 million dollars per copy, another outrage for another post), provided they could get that past aipac, and duke it out with israel? it’s OK that their land and property were stolen, and that they are dispossessed and imprisoned on their own land? (the fraction of their land that they are “allowed” to populate). no, i am not in favor of terrorism or innocent victims, but who is suffering more terrorism, who has more innocent victims; why don’t we recognize ALL the victims and ALL the terrorists? is it surprising that some of them are so desperate — so desperate to be even heard by the world, that they take to this?

yep, turn the other cheek, that’s what they should do, that’s the “christian” way, as shown through history. god will provide. they’ll all go to heaven, incl. the malnourished, dirt poor, dehydrated little children.

yes we did. but what does that have to do with how our mideast policy has been hijacked by a foreign power? that is ONE of the MANY serious problems — it shouldn’t be discussed because you say so? only problems that suit your fancy should be discussed?

show me where i’m stating that this is the only problem — my posts above contain numerous other examples; but it is a huge concern when pretty much ALL our “leaders” (not just Obama, and not just now) have to kneel before reps of a foreign power and go to a foreign power to pledge allegiance to it. this pretty much tells us how little control we have, and how it’s not just aipac but special interests in general who have their ear. but this genuflecting be4 aipac is a perfect example of this larger problem — they do this with the other special interests, too, though not so much in public. this is but an EXAMPLE of what is wrong here. how do you think it came to pass that we killed those 3 mill in vietnam — was it done with full consultation and agreement from the people, were the FACTS presented as they were not as someone wished them to be? And here, in DV, are FACTS presented as they are instead to suit someone’s pet theories?

And while i recognize that this is not the only problem, i am also a bit taken aback that, while posters generally recognize that there are many PROBLEMS, to them only one SOLUTION exists: Ralph Nader. It’s no solution at all, IMHO, but just like you’re tired of some posters Israel this Israel that, I’m tired of — whatever the subject that comes up, it’s Ralph this and Ralph that. So, take some of your own medicine wrt being in a mental rut and seeing things only one way.

And so, it’s OK to forget about the millions of Palestinians, Iraq and all the other injustices in ME and our contribution/cause to/of them, and how we enable that, because we also did all those other things? It’s OK to forget how we are bankrupting ourselves with the military (who are a menace not just to ME), which is in large part so bloated because of ME? Oh, I know, Nader will fix all that, he’ll wave the magic wand. Like he’s “fixed” all these other things right here at home.

“I really believe that, in an uncommonly focused way, AIPAC is able to get a result for the safety, security and economic wellbeing of Israel that no other organization can do…”
——Seth “Yossi” Siegel, AIPAC Northeast Regional Council Chair
taken from the AIPAC webpage. This person is an American citizen who doesn’t give a hoot about America (not a word about America and its wellbeing and its interests and safety and security), but it’s Israel ueber alles and Israel only. He should be doing hard time for TREASON, as well as a bunch of our politicians.

I do not know how you can state things from the sideline when you don’t know what is going on HERE. Imagine this is happening in Canada, and let’s keep Israel out of this, let’s say a Canadian person from the mgmt of a big, powerful organization says the above about – I don’t know, Indonesia, or Japan, or Sierra Leone. Wouldn’t that be extremely disconcerting, especially if it involved YOUR money, AND your TAXES and YOUR wellbeing and security that is being traded away for this other country?

A couple of quotes from Wikipedia:

In September 2007, Congressman Jim Moran of Virginia (who has been criticized by Jewish organization on several occasions) stated that the Jewish community as a whole and AIPAC, in particular, drove the United States toward the war in Iraq. Moran noted that AIPAC is “the most powerful lobby and has pushed this war from the beginning. I don’t think they represent the mainstream of American Jewish thinking at all, but because they are so well organized, and their members are extraordinarily powerful — most of them are quite wealthy — they have been able to exert power.” Moran later issued an APOLOGY for his comments.

In 2006, the New York Review of Books published a letter from Representative Betty McCollum of Minnesota to AIPAC executive director Howard Kohr. In the letter, McCollum demanded an
apology from AIPAC after McCollum says that, in a recent phone conversation with her chief of staff, that an AIPAC representative told him that “Congresswoman McCollum’s support for terrorists will not be tolerated,” after Representative McCollum voted against H.R. 4681
(Palestinian Anti-Terrorism Act of 2006). McCollum stated that AIPAC representatives will not be allowed in her office until she receives a written apology for the comment. The AIPAC rep denied the accusation and would not issue an apology. Kohr requested a meeting to talk it over. McCollum’s voting had shown support for Israel and senior activists in Minnesota’’s Jewish community and congressional staffers who know her well describe her as a supporter. McCollum has since DECLARED THE INCIDENT OVER.

So, here we have a couple of congressmen who DARED put forth a mild criticism of AIPAC – I am surprised that they mustered even that much courage (mild compared to the outrages perpetrated by AIPAC theretofore), and who had to APOLOGIZE or stand back and swallow
insults.

Another quote from Wiki:

“[It] gained so much political muscle that by 1985 AIPAC and its allies could force President Reagan to renege on an arms deal he had promised to [Jordan's] King Hussein. By 1986, the pro-Israel lobby could stop Reagan from making another jet fighter deal with Saudi Arabia, and Secretary of State George Shultz had to sit down with AIPAC’s executive director — not Congressional leaders — to find out what level of arms sales to the Saudis AIPAC would tolerate”.

So, here we have an organization who have a VETO power over the US foreign policy. Where presidents and their cabinet have to sit down with AIPAC and mollify AIPAC and ask AIPAC for permission. Who is the vassal here and who’s calling the shots? And this says nothing about the espionage cases AGAINST the US that they have been involved in. Nothing about their people being in all levels of government (incl. the military) for both parties.

In1992, AIPAC president David Steiner was forced to resign after he was tape recorded boasting about his political influence in obtaining aid for Israel. Steiner claimed that he had met with (then Bush U.S. Secretary of State) Jim Baker and I cut a deal with him. “I got, besides the $3 billion, you know they’re looking for the Jewish votes, and I’ll tell him whatever he wants to hear … Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don’t even know about.
Steiner also claimed to be “negotiating” with the incoming Clinton administration over who Clinton would appoint as Secretary of State and Secretary of the National Security Agency. Steiner stated that AIPAC had “a dozen people in [the Clinton] campaign, in the headquarters… in Little Rock, and they’re all going to get big jobs.”
Haim Katz told The Washington Times that he taped the conversation because “as someone Jewish, I am concerned when a small group has a disproportionate power. I think that hurts everyone, including Jews. If David Steiner wants to talk about the incredible, disproportionate
clout AIPAC has, the public should know about it.”

So, even the Jewish people within the organization – the smart ones, the ones who have their priorities and allegiances straight, and who care about the long term effects on the Jews, see that this is a cancer that must be stopped.

This organization has 100,000 members, who are on average very wealthy (bankers and such). 100,000 lobbyists – when 100 lobbyists for a cause is considered huge. And that doesn’t include the crazy theocrats who spew bible bullshit, and the end of times bullshit and who have large, powerful organizations. I don’t see what the supposed “poverty” of Israel (a ridiculous concept – those same bankers immigrated there, too) has anything to do with this.

To understand US power and how it’s been deployed and documented throughout much of its history is how you understand what is going on in the world, vis-a-vis the American Empire.

Obama genuflects to AIPAC and it’s not poor Obama that’s to blame for sticking it to Palestinians with his talk of an undivided Jeruselum. It’s the “power of AIPAC”. I would say that it is more about Obama than it is about the power of AIPAC.

Such conclusions miss 4 hundred years of Western/American imperial history. As if we never killed 3 million Vietnamese men, women and children…you know. When raw empire power is not understood it leads to false conclusions like “Zionists run the US foreign policy”. Israeli leader as well as generations of US leaders are clearly war criminals; but it is the US who just as clearly holds the record on war crimes.

of course, i am only saying this to show that you proved nothing. i know we also give money to a bunch of other countries. e.g., egypt, and we’re definitely not a colony of egypt. but we are acting like a colony of israel, and what you said doesn’t disprove it.

so, looking strictly at those results, the lawyers have been a negative influence overall, notwithstanding the fact that not ALL of them were bad, of course.

and similarly for all the other categories i listed.

as for nader tactics, as an example, read the recent article by w. blum on patriotism — i commented extensively on it. (i know blum isn’t nader, but this is an example of the tactics). on the surface, all looks OK and you agree with everything, but when you dig you see it’s fraught through and through with distortions, falsehoods, inventions and the like.

“one atom of plutonium will kill you” — sound familiar — well one of nader’s tactics.

and i’m pointing to results. as for millionaires knowing what ails common folk, no they can’t do it unless they live among common folk and have the same problems. i have nothing against them, except i’d like a little EQUALITY: right now, all (or nearly all) members of congres, the senators, the president, in the state houses too, they are all millionaires representing millionaires’ interests. i want them to pay their fair share and their taxes and stop screwing us, and i’d like to be represented by someone other than a millionaire, and not have the govt by millionaires for millionaires. if you don’t know why millionaires can’t have a clue what it’s like to be a common person then i can’t help you.

True, but they have the “poor” palestine because they robbed it from the indigenous population. And no, it’s not so poor. During the roman times, the phoenicians were here with their trading empire (a very big, successful and PROFITABLE empire), as well as the jews later on. What
does the size have to do with anything – the roman empire started from the city of rome.

“ how ab the money/arms it receives?
one wd think that if US is israel’s dependency, isr shld be giving money/arms to US in order to obtain its goodwill/cooperation, etc?”

No, it’s exactly the other way around. You’ve just “proven” the other side’s point. It’s a misnomer, but it’s the “dependency”, i.e., the colony, which sends the money and the resources to the colonizing country, not the other way round. Who benefitted more from colonization of africa
and india – the africans and the indians or the british? If the former, then why would the british go to the trouble of colonizing? Same with the roman colonies. The mother country takes the resources out of the colonies. That is the whole point – our resources and our interests are being subverted for israeli interests.

“how ab the wmd? how cld have such a poor land manufactured them?yet, isr had acquired them! how/when? from whom?”

They acquired the nuclear weapons (the design thereof) from the french. The israelis and the french had collaborated on the design of the french weapon when france first broke into the nuclear club, circa 1960. So, they acquired the design from the french (remember, a few years earlier the french, the british and the israelis invaded the suez (egypt) and who stopped them – america did, but that was before the time of aipac, etc.). Once you have the design, then you just follow it to
make the actual weapons – the 200 or so the israelis have. That’s not hard to do, once you have the special reactor for making the special mix of plutonium isotopes that you need for a weapon But the israelis have that (the dimona reactor) and all the other concomitant technologies.

So the short story is, they acquired the design from the french and built the weapons themselves — they had all they needed. The americans were not in on it (those were the times when america was an independent country, not in the grips of aipac), as a matter of fact they sent several inspection teams to the dimona facility in the 60s to make sure all was above board. But they were fooled. The israelis bricked over the elevator doors and the staircases leading to the incriminating
parts of the plant, for the duration of the inspections, and made it appear the walls were there instead.

And why are you calling israel a “poor land”? Because they don’t have iron ore? Their standard of living is up there with the developed world. Making steel is not the only way of generating income, of powering an economy. They have desalination plants. They made the desert bloom.
They have all kinds of military aircraft, a huge number of them, and sophisticated weaponry of every kind. They have a mature and sophisticated weapons industry (ever heard of an Uzi machine gun, but that’s just the start). They have this nuclear research facility and the know-how and the technology of making nuclear weapons.

And why would a “poor land” be a poor candidate for developing the bomb, anyway? China was dirt poor when it developed and tested its weapons. So was the Soviet Union for that matter. India and Pakistan – the same thing. North Korea – the poorest of the poor. Are you saying
North Korea is not as poor as Israel? What does poor have to do with wmd?

“if a party or org wants to control, let’s say, russia, one can be sure that the control of its governance wd be obtained only w. paying or ‘donating’ megabucks to russian politicians, journalists, educators, clergy, et al. in other words, control of a land is obtained, aside thru militancy, solely by money.”

Well, again, you’re proving the other guy’s point. This is EXACTLY how it’s done in america, too. A politician can’t win if they run afoul of aipac. And it’s true of american politics in general, or any other country. You can say — extending your argument wrt israel and aipac, there are 300 million people here, or 200 million plus voters, so how can people’s interests be subverted by a small minority of the rich and the powerful, of the corporations and the like. Well, it’s done just
like you said it – through money, through megabucks, and not only in russia, but right here in the usa. So who’s the dog, who’s the tail when you talk about the special interests vs. the american people? The size of an entity doesn’t determine who wins, it’s more the matter of the “brains” and the organization and the money. If a politician says something or does something against israel (like bush the elder did), aipac with its deep pockets will run advertisements for his opponent. They can dig the dirt on people. They can hire consultants to distort the facts and falsify and tug at the voters hearts with the right pitch. They will buy the right people, they have the organization, the machinery down pat. They say bush I lost to clinton due to aipac. And it’s
all intermingled now – the us businessmen have connections through aipac, etc., our politicians, and would be politicians and businessmen and lawyers work a stint in israel for the israeli govt – which is an offense, if done for any other country, which will LOSE you your american citizenship, but not in the case of israel.

Last time we had an arab american in congress – abourezk, was in the 80s. Last time a president said no to israel was in the 80s early 90s. During reagan, when israel bombed osirak (the iraqi nuclear reactor) the us vigorously protested, maybe even introduced a resolution at the un. This would be unthinkable now. Just because it was a certain way a long time ago doesn’t mean it’s that way now. This cancer of aipac is growing, enveloping more and more with its tentacles. No, it’s not the only problem in america, but it’s a huge problem in an important sphere – a big chunk of our foreign policy (and a big chunk of our morality — endorsing subjugation and horrible oppression of a people who had their land, their property STOLEN from them); and it’s growing,
so maybe one day it will be ALL our foreign policy, and after that who knows maybe it will envelop the domestic policy as well. Maybe the day will come when we’ll send all our taxes straight to israel.

Tell me, do israeli presidential/prime minister candidates, and their members of Knesset, come before an american lobbying organization in israel to make speeches of their undying love for america and of their intention to make america’s interests primary and israeli interests secondary? Do they come to america to compete who will be a better friend to the americans? Does any other country do that with respect to another country — i am sure even al-maliki (the iraqi PM) would never stoop so low wrt america? No, it’s the other way around — our politicians do this in regards to israel and aipac. Did the Roman emperors go to Armenia to pledge allegiance to Armenia and their emperor (installed by Rome) or was it the other way around?

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=831

http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/israel2.htm

http://judicial-inc.biz/82zakhiem_controller.htm

his so called campaigns for the people or people’s interest have resulted in people being more poor and oppressed (and depressed), while he has become/is a multimillionaire. maybe they did not do so directly, but that’s the end result. (and indirectly that’s the result because people see he can’t be trusted). so at the least he hasn’t been more effective. but you can’t be effective when you don’t have the truth on your side, when you use the tactics of your enemies.

and i don’t know how on earth a multimillionaire can represent the people, even if his heart were in the right place (which it is not, as stated above). you have to rise FROM the people and see all their troubles first hand.

tell me which exact facts enumerated above you quarrel with. what did i misrepresent as the state of affairs in the us (not in your canada, here in the us).

Iron production (2006):

China 11 times the US
UK last on sorted (highest to lowest) Wiki list (45th) only 1,000 tonnes (i.e., effectively zero)
Swizerland not on the list
(Russia, Ukraine, India ahead of the US)
Japan not on the sorted list
Oz 4 times more than the US
Finland, Denmark, France not on the list
North Korea ahead of Germany, Austria, South Korea (by a lot)
Zimbabwe ahead of UK and Germany

Iron ore (2004):

Egypt ahead of France and Germany
Japan only 1,000 tons
China import 2/3 of its ore
US imports 1/3
Zimbabwe, Tunisia, Egypt, Turkey ahead of Germany, France, UK, etc.
Ukraine ahead of the US

Steel (2007):

China more than US, EU and Japan combined
India more than France, Germany, UK
Egypt more than Sweden
Turkey more than France

no i am not. i am going by what he’s done and said (over 2-3 decades), about things that i know a thing or two about. i’ve seen his tactics of fear mongering, distortions and lying first hand. and i’ve listed a couple instances of questionable behavior up above.

“for now i pay attention solely what he’s done and said.”

obviously, you’re either not very critical, or are not very cognizant.

1) In the past few decades, the people of the US have become poorer, more miserable and more desperate, while the rich and the powerful have become more so. Ralph Nader, the so called champion of the downtrodden has become (or maybe always was) a multimillionaire, while the downtrodden have become more downtrodden. (How can a multimillionaire empathize and commiserate with the downtrodden and the dirt-poor, how can he even see their problems as his own — assuming that’s what he wants to do, which is highly doubtful?) So at the very least, he was not effective; more likely he was not working for the downtrodden but for himself.

2) In the past few decades, the union bosses have become fabulously rich, while the workers have become progressively poorer and more downtrodden. These bosses employed the unions in the service of the organized crime (the mafia), (of course they received rich kickbacks for that), so the multimillionaires in charge of those organizations could get even richer (off ripping ALL of us off) while the workers got poorer and their reputation was put in the toilet. But the union bosses pulled salaries of half a mill per year, while the workers don’t have enough to eat; and the unions have been all but destroyed now, from the time when close to 70% of the workforce was unionized.

3) In the past few decades, lawyering has exploded in the US, ostensibly to make this a more just and lawful society. (Ralphie boy is a lawyer, remember?) The result is that the majority of people are more miserable, downtrodden and poor than ever before. Not only are they economically oppressed as never before, but their families have been broken up. The fathers have been told that they are criminals and that they can never lay eyes on their own children. All kinds of laws have
been invented that oppress the people, while making it easier for the rich and the powerful to skirt the laws, to subvert people’s taxes into their own pockets, to not pay taxes themselves, and to oppress the people. Meanwhile, the lawyers themselves have become fabulously rich and filthy rich.

4) In the past few decades, all kinds of organizations, government and non-government have sprung up (Ralphie boy had a few), all kinds of projects to help the poor and the downtrodden and to generally help the people. As a result, the people have become poorer and more
downtrodden and oppressed, while those heading up such organizations and projects have made off with fabulous fortunes.

5) In the past few decades, all kinds of organizations have sprung up to “help the environment” (Ralphie boy had a few). The result has been a general degradation of the environment, logging, etc., asthma has exploded, cancer has exploded, while the persons heading up those organizations have made off with fabulous fortunes.

6) In the past few decades, all kinds of money has been poured into medical research and into medicine. The result has been that our health is the worst it’s ever been and people cannot afford even routine medical care. Instead, people are locked in dead-end jobs, having nightmares about the same, just to be assured of medical care. People cannot afford to buy medicine, which are several times cheaper in Canada and Europe. But the doctors and the pharma have made off like
the bandits that they are.

7) In the past few decades, all kinds of awareness and organizations have sprung up, so that we would eat healthy foods and be healthy. The result is that our foods are polluted, most of what’s in the supermarket is loaded with carcinogenic chemicals and plastics and who knows what
witches stew of chemicals. The people are dying off but the others heading up these organizations have become filthy rich, going through the revolving doors between the regulators and the regulated.

Etc., etc., etc. I think the score is clear on those who want to “help” us, whether in government or out, who represent themselves as people’s “crusaders”. They are in reality self-serving pirates to put it very, very mildly in polite company.

Full circle back to Ralphie boy. He doesn’t need to worry about the price of gas. He doesn’t need to worry about the roof over his head. His opinion of the people he wants to “serve” is pretty bleak. When he moved to a pristine place in California, he made the local powers that be
pass a law that henceforth no-one else could move in there – just so Ralphie boy could enjoy nature without the pesky unwashed masses. He rails against corporations, but he himself owns them; and treats his employees like chattel, paying them slave wages, not paying overtime while demanding it, calling them up at 1am on weekends to talk shop, having meetings at 7am. Employing lies, demagoguery and fear-mongering over decades in his various projects and campaigns – I imagine because the other side does too — well that’s the excuse; the real reasons are more self-serving. (OK, he wrote that book on the auto industry, that was good, but that was FORTY YEARS AGO). Well, then you’ve become the other side, when you employ such methods, and the people, wisely, don’t trust him (except for the 5% deluded ones); so again, he’ll get 5% (not of the population, but of those that go to the polls) and that will be declared a “victory”. And for whatever it’s worth, McKinney wisely didn’t want to play second fiddle to this, so that’s in the plus column for her, along with a bunch of other things she’s done; however, being associated with “progressives”, whatever the color, is NOT in the plus column.

We’ve had quite a few “victories” in the past few decades, haven’t we? (I mean we the people, I am not part of the “progressive” joke movement). Not much diff between Ralphie boy and the others, as far as I’m concerned. WAKE UP!!!!!

BTW people–does everything posted on DV relate to zionism in some way? Just asking.