I don’t disgree with you. Nader doesn’t represent the kind of change you’re talking about. He comes out of the cold war era. He was a Democrat turned Green/Independent.

But my point is he is what he is and I don’t think it helps to use him as a “whipping boy” for deep social and economic justice and change; i.e., the kind you are talking about.

MLK was not a political leader but a great articulator of social, racial, class injustices and the perpetation of US Empire throughout the world.

We agree on what Nader has done. He is not the movement leader for the transformation or revolution which must take place as the Empire unravels.

As to this interesting point about Castro; progressive/left have always counteracted American propaganda with a heavy does of “blind eye”.
But I think, given the history of US gunboat diplomacy, particularly given the results in Chile when a democratically elected Allende was assassinated (and this is but one of many examples), there is more than simply an embargo to support the continued reign of one man in Cuba. Symbiotic relationships are natural occurances; and Cuba is no different.

For sure, a critique about the top-down government should be presented in its full context. We see in Venezuela and Bolivia (and elsewhere), due in part to US preoccupation in the ME) a move toward democratic and decentralized governance in workers’ cooperatives and the like. It is very difficult to transform what is. I would like to see Chavez’s role diminished. Still the right-wing, the Venezuelian media and US insurgents are ever present. It creates a formidable dilemma.

For me, US manifest destiny, the Monroe Doctrine and US Empire, particularly in South America has done much to shape the political atmospher in Latin America.

Empire’s Workshop by Greg Gandin is a good read on this.

But why do you imagine that a movement for cheaper gas could turn into a movement for the kinds of deep, radical transportation and urban reforms we need? To name a very close comparison case: I’m sure that, in 1965, Ralph thought his push for auto safety would lead to that kind of movement, too, and that he wouldn’t have to talk deeper and more radically.

The last 42 years show he was deeply wrong about that assumption. Movements need to start by making big, honest demands and then fighting toward them in steps. The goal has to precede and lead the steps.

More examples: You don’t get socialism or even social democracy by fighting for better wages, or single-payer by rallying behind managed care. You have to name what you want, then choose and explain your steps forward.

Nader has this backwards, IMHO. I think his model of suggestive reforms asked for in lowest-common-denominator terms is a serious failure, as he himself might conclude from the fact that he is now protesting the very NHTSA he helped bring forth. Small, sheepish, unclear demands produce small, isolated changes.

MLK’s very first speech on the bus boycott was quite radical, and concluded by saying black Montgomerians were setting out to change the whole society.

You can like Castro’s reforms, applaud his willingness not to take shit form the US (or very little, the US does have a Guatanamo in Cuba and Castro’s smart enough to know that he can’t chase them out), but that does not mean that Castro is free from criticism or that it is “racist” to criticize his dictatorship or “pro-imperialist” to do so.

I hate it when countries, leaders, etc., blame others for their own failings. Yes, the US has committed atrocious crimes regarding the 40+ year blockade. But all of Cuba’s problems cannot be laid on the back on Uncle Sam alone. Sorry, but Fidel needs to accept some responsibility as well. If one is to be a one party dictatorship for more than 40 years, one is going to be dirty. Tell me of a Democratic Republic that changes administration every 4 years or so (those with real representation) that isn’t dirty itself? Name me ANY government that isn’t dirty!

Attacking a one-party dictatorship is not racist. I don’t know how anyone could make such a charge.

First of all, we cannot will movements into existence, movements happen when many people are fed up with the system, but are politically in different places with different outlooks. Consciousness in any movement is a really mixed bag; people are going to know that gas is high because the system is screwing them, but the deatikls of why would vary form individual to individual. Your assertion that “pulling a bait & switch” would mean that a few have total control over the movement and can dictate what that movement means. A movement to lower gas prices would have many people with many ideas drawing different conclusions, and some of those conclusions lead to confusion. Various individuals and factions would debate such points on websites like this (look at the variety of anti-war articles that have appeared here in the past week and a half with different perspectives). That would be the case with a movement against gas prices. What effect it would have I do not know; I have no crystal ball.

About the civil rights movement: your example is a good one, but people would not only be rallying to get the prices down, but most would be angry enough to say, “You oil companies are not going to screw us.” Yes, the civil rights movement did the bus boycott to achieve integration, all were clear on that (and there was much mixed consciousness there as well, hence the extreme infighting), but despite the mixed consciousness over any current movement against big oil, most people would see this movement as a push back against the haves.

Finally, all movements attract kooks. Thanks again.

Best,
B

And your “opinion” is wrong. Do not make such statements with no evidence to back it up.

The truth is that regardless of the message, there is no political savior or solution. This is an empire which must (and will, and I think it has begun) unravel.

For sure we are beyond Nader, and I think McKinney as well, regardless of how much they speak truth to power. There are mighty forces which will not simply roll over. Dan e you can call who ever you want whatever you want but as Dr. King said, we may have come over on different boats, but we’re in the same one now.

We are even beyond the greatest movement leader this country has known (certainly in my life) Dr. King. But in the end, it is Empire that has had its way. That will end but we must wade through the grotesqueness that is the duopoly’s fascistic framework - 2008 elections.

It’s all about local, the rest is just one gigantic gall stone.

Not that deep criticisms of the Cubano leadership such as those offered recently by longtime friend of the Cuban Revolution Jas Petras are not without foundation, but let’s keep things in focus: a Slave Rebellion is not a Dinner Party. The fundamental fact re the Cubano regime is Cuba remains free of its erstwhile Yanqui slavemasters.

But what else can you expect from these vacillating P-B’s? One minute they oppose imperialist aggression, the next they’re echoing imperialist propaganda. Bunch a goddam Cold War Liberals. Which is why most downtoearth grassroots folks stayed home from all these Vigils: one minute these honchae want yr support, the next they want you to swallow a bunch of that Solidarnosc jive. Bunch of rats to whom all attempts to create a society not dominated by “business” are to be denounced. Because these folks are primarily Business People, Employers wary of letting the Labor Force get too powerful, whether in Cuba or presentday US. But Nader can be trusted, these P-Bs say: after all, he’s a millionaire too, a fellow Employer so won’t go too far.

Dedicated to the memory of Salvador Allende’s ideal of Democracy,

dan

It’s fascinating that he’s willing to toss around the word “fascism,” but won’t touch “capitalism.”

The USA is a mess, but it is not fascist, and corporate capitalism is not fascism, either.

And what percentage of Americans will listen to somebody talk about non-existent “fascism”? It’s a lot lower than will listen to honest explanations of how capitalism works.

P.S. I think Cynthia McKinney is saying more relevant stuff than Ralph now is…

I don’t think anyone is above reproach. In fact in defending anyone you always run the risk of that person saying something or doing something you simply cannot agree with. But, I also think that in the scheme of things, that is the total picture, Nader has been the greatest ally to American workers and those without a voice of the mid-20th and now early 21st Century. This in no way discounts the late 19th Century and early 20th Century voices such as Eugene Debbs and many others. Nor is it meant to lessen the likes of Ceasar Chavez.

But I can think of no other American who has so completely and utterly made this mission his passionate life’s work a force for the non-elite against the massive predatory corporate capitalists. The man bares his soul.

He is very imperfect. We can disagree with the effectiveness of his political tactics. And he has pissed people off that I recognize as comrades in our efforts to transform this ugly empire. But he is not going to be running his country. Extremely well read and piercingly bright, he is not a scholar nor a coy pol. There are many things Nader is not. His is not - and this is a major issue - a movement leader. What Nader calls for takes more than one persons voice. But that is not a personal fault; it’s simply an unmet need.

I think, Nader, with all his focus and doggedness has grown in many ways over the years. His understanding of economics in terms of human relationships is much more subtle and therefore he may not be as quick to yell - up with socialism, down with capitalism as if there are easy dichotomies to separate.

As I said, given where we are, the real issue, I think, is with the duopoly and the fascism it brings. Not the short comings of one man who’s given his all.

As to movement formation, that the real issue, as you say. personally speaking I tend to disagree with you about taking baby steps, but I’m also not sure cheap gas is even a baby step in the right direction.

When the Montgomery Bus Boycott touched off the Civil Rights Movement, nobody was under any illusion that they were just trying to make it easier to get around town in Montgomery. They were attacking segregation, and they said so in the clearest, boldest terms. If it has just been about using the bus, they could have started a black-run bus line.

And the cheap gas call is going to confuse people more than it clarifies things. It will also draw in a raft of disruptive, reactionary kooks.

I don’t know a single case of a successful social movement that pulled off a bait-and-switch strategy with its own members. Its next to impossible to form a successful social movement. I think it’s _completely_ impossible to do so if the failure is built in from the start.

And, again, it is far from clear that cheaper oil is even possible. Not all speculation is irrational. Even a nationalized energy industry would probably be buying and stockpiling oil now at high prices, based on the likelihood that future prices will be even higher, due to booming global demand and peaking supplies — neither of which Nader mentions.

And finally, here’s another question for Ralph: Why is he running for President rather than starting a social movement for economic democracy? He’d undoubtedly say the former leads to the latter. But he has always disappeared after his runs, even in 2000, when we desperately needed him to attack the Electoral College.

I would also like to add that government-run enterprises like railroads, power companies, and hospitals (don’t know why insurance companies and power companies are listed as they are now mostly private in US) are not in any way socialism within capitalism as was alleged above. They are examples of mild social democracy. Single payer health care would be a greater example of mild social democracy, but this country does not have a social democratic history like UK, France, Sweden, and to a lesser extent, Canada, among other countries.

Also, Cuba is not a truly socialist country, and it is alarming to see it used as an example of such. It is a top-down bureaucracy/dictatorship. Socialism is one of the most misused words in the English language and applying it to Cuba, China, USSR, or even Venuzuela is not accurate. True socialism, the means of production ran by those who actually produce it and to have all run democratically, has never been born.

Michael, I don’t disagree with your analysis of what is wrong with the system, but let’s hope that high gas prices will get people to show up so that we can have a participatory democracy. WE have to crawl before we can walk.

Max, what is galling about asking Ralph to speak the truth about power? You seem to be saying he’s earned a pass on that expectation, even though it’s his calling card and stated reason for seeking the Presidency again.

I’m asking Ralph to talk about why the overclass can’t tolerate serious, adequate transportation reform. I’m asking him to acknowledge our severe energy crisis. I’m asking him to stop implying that cheap gas is an adequate solution, even if it’s possible.

And by the way, none of this has to do with either socialist railing or intolerance for all forms and kinds of businesses. It has to do with creating the basis for popular organizing and resistance and democracy. I’m not asking Nader to act like Lenin. Hell, I don’t even like Lenin, who was both an over-rated theorist and a good friend of Stalin. I’m simply asking Ralph to add some depth and urgency and _realism_ to his existing efforts to explain and politicize the corporate system.

Cheaper gas and better cars will not get us through this make-or-break century…

Max, what is galling about asking Ralph to speak the truth about power? You seem to be saying he’s earned a pass on that expectation, even though it’s his calling card and stated reason for seeking the Presidency again.

I’m asking Ralph to talk about why the overclass can’t tolerate serious, adequate transportation reform. I’m asking him to acknowledge our severe energy crisis. I’m asking him to stop implying that cheap gas is an adequate solution, even if it’s possible.

And by the way, none of this has to do with either socialist railing or tolerance for small business. It has to do with creating the basis for popular organizing and resistance and democracy. I’m not asking Nader to act like Lenin. Hell, I don’t even like Lenin, who was an over-rated theorist and a friend of Stalin. I’m simply asking Ralph to add some depth and urgency and realism to his existing efforts to explain and politicize the corporate system.

Cheaper gas and better cars will not get us through this make-or-break century…

And, where’s the gratitude? Thanks to Nader we have OSHA and EPA. Do we not have cleaner and safer work environs, cleaner and safer air to breathe and water to drink and pristine landfills? Are our automobiles not of better quality and safer? (Asked with tongue in cheek.)

Lucky he still with us Max? Why? Has he been a threat to the “system” or the status quo? Or is he just the sanctioned “left” cheek on the ruling class ass.