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	<title>Comments on: Where is the Antiwar Movement?</title>
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	<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/</link>
	<description>a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 02:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: dan e</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-22140</link>
		<dc:creator>dan e</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-22140</guid>
		<description>Myles, 

Salmonella found in tomatos, esp. Roma/"Saladette", last cpl wks. Found 3 real nice Romas last trip to store, then had to throw them away. Erstwhile "Sactomato"  fits profile of "B'more": not the place to come to commence Activism, that is if you want more than bandaids.

Thanks for your note,

dan:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Myles, </p>
<p>Salmonella found in tomatos, esp. Roma/&#8221;Saladette&#8221;, last cpl wks. Found 3 real nice Romas last trip to store, then had to throw them away. Erstwhile &#8220;Sactomato&#8221;  fits profile of &#8220;B&#8217;more&#8221;: not the place to come to commence Activism, that is if you want more than bandaids.</p>
<p>Thanks for your note,</p>
<p>dan:)</p>
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		<title>By: Myles Hoenig</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-22125</link>
		<dc:creator>Myles Hoenig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-22125</guid>
		<description>dan e
I had to look up perspicacious.  Big words like that are usually flattering but I wasn't sure.
What's the reference to Salmononento?

I think the overall message of my piece, at least regarding Baltimore, is if you want to be really actively involved in real grass roots movement, don't come to B'more.

But not all is hopeless here.  Anytime vets against the war are active, B'more or elsewhere, you can find some real activists.  Also,  unknown to this group, there's a very strong student led organization (Algebra Project)  and its offshoots, that are really taking on the establishment in this city regarding public education.  They are some of the very few activist heroes in this city.  Also, there's a coalition to stop our utilities in their rate increases.  So much to say about them but overall, they're fine examples of what grass roots activism is all about.  The anti-war movement here?   Lame!!  

Myles</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dan e<br />
I had to look up perspicacious.  Big words like that are usually flattering but I wasn&#8217;t sure.<br />
What&#8217;s the reference to Salmononento?</p>
<p>I think the overall message of my piece, at least regarding Baltimore, is if you want to be really actively involved in real grass roots movement, don&#8217;t come to B&#8217;more.</p>
<p>But not all is hopeless here.  Anytime vets against the war are active, B&#8217;more or elsewhere, you can find some real activists.  Also,  unknown to this group, there&#8217;s a very strong student led organization (Algebra Project)  and its offshoots, that are really taking on the establishment in this city regarding public education.  They are some of the very few activist heroes in this city.  Also, there&#8217;s a coalition to stop our utilities in their rate increases.  So much to say about them but overall, they&#8217;re fine examples of what grass roots activism is all about.  The anti-war movement here?   Lame!!  </p>
<p>Myles</p>
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		<title>By: dan e</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-22122</link>
		<dc:creator>dan e</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-22122</guid>
		<description>"Moonbattery": went to it, saw, report: Dont Bother. Rightwing Kookblog. Nothing on it has anything in common with what I said re Cindy's ties to various Democrats, PDA, Tom Hayden et al. My take is she's a sincere well-intending person possessing certain unusual political talents but a sucker for flattery, and so far not able to completely overcome influences of her earlier environment/experiences which had her believing she lived in "America" (sic).  But if she manages to do ANYTHING to put a crimp in Nasty Pelosi's career, she's done us all a great service for which I applaud her.

"hp": read your stuff in the past. Yes, I'm laughing at you. 

Brandy Baker: thanks for your perspicacious insights! Sounds like Baltimore may in some respects resemble Sactomat -- oops, I mean Salmonnento...

Rosemary J: thank you for thanking Myles H for his superbly focussed focus. And your other astute takes. 

Max, you aren't really stupid but you're a bore. "Eyeball to eyeball" my ass: try going "eyeball to eyeball" with the local bank as it files to have the local Sheriff evict the family who couldn't generate enough income locally to cover their Subprime mortgage. Local peasnicks, incl. Greens, Pwogwessive Dumbocrats, Codepinkers, Peace&#38;Freedom, got local Demo-controlled city council twice to pass Resolutions begging for "Peace" vs. Iraq. Hohum, the Widow Matsui ignores them, will sail to reelection. Cheney, Bush, Templesman &#38; Assoc. continue as before, not even a hiccup of real opposition. Obama will if elected continue present policies, a fact he doesn't make any attempt to conceal. Clinton at least made Promises &#38; elevated Tokens but Obama doesn't bother, why should he when he's got unaminous support of every Black Democrat on the (virtual)  Plantation. 

Like I say, I don't pretend to know what the answer is, but whatever it is it starts by severing all ties to all Democrats, no more footsie-footsie. And by recognizing that this is a global, international problem so you have to stop kidding yourself that by ignoring everything outside your  "local" attention span you're anything but part of the problem.

No, it's not enough to try to "live Green". Jesus what bs. Now we have Green real estate developers, who get their Long Green from the same NYC bankers as the rest of them. 

I don't know where Max lives, &#38; don't care, but wherever it is, economic life is controlled by the Imperial Center, just like life in Gaza or Haiti. Unless of course he's posting from somewhere in the imperial orbit of the Middle Kingdom? Iran, maybe? Which exhausts the options I know of. 

A bunch of crazed maniacs now control the levers of Power, that is the DOD, Executive Security industry, "Intelligence" "community" (what a phrase). By keeping your head down &#38; trying to be Eco-friendly it's possible to escape coming to their notice -- if you happen to have a means of existence in an area they're not focussing Ethnic Cleansing efforts on at the moment. Which is why I'm able to say stuff like this without expecting a  knock on the door at 4AM tomorrow. 

Let's see, what can I think of to post that will convince unsympathetic readers that I'm just a harmless old crackpot?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Moonbattery&#8221;: went to it, saw, report: Dont Bother. Rightwing Kookblog. Nothing on it has anything in common with what I said re Cindy&#8217;s ties to various Democrats, PDA, Tom Hayden et al. My take is she&#8217;s a sincere well-intending person possessing certain unusual political talents but a sucker for flattery, and so far not able to completely overcome influences of her earlier environment/experiences which had her believing she lived in &#8220;America&#8221; (sic).  But if she manages to do ANYTHING to put a crimp in Nasty Pelosi&#8217;s career, she&#8217;s done us all a great service for which I applaud her.</p>
<p>&#8220;hp&#8221;: read your stuff in the past. Yes, I&#8217;m laughing at you. </p>
<p>Brandy Baker: thanks for your perspicacious insights! Sounds like Baltimore may in some respects resemble Sactomat &#8212; oops, I mean Salmonnento&#8230;</p>
<p>Rosemary J: thank you for thanking Myles H for his superbly focussed focus. And your other astute takes. </p>
<p>Max, you aren&#8217;t really stupid but you&#8217;re a bore. &#8220;Eyeball to eyeball&#8221; my ass: try going &#8220;eyeball to eyeball&#8221; with the local bank as it files to have the local Sheriff evict the family who couldn&#8217;t generate enough income locally to cover their Subprime mortgage. Local peasnicks, incl. Greens, Pwogwessive Dumbocrats, Codepinkers, Peace&amp;Freedom, got local Demo-controlled city council twice to pass Resolutions begging for &#8220;Peace&#8221; vs. Iraq. Hohum, the Widow Matsui ignores them, will sail to reelection. Cheney, Bush, Templesman &amp; Assoc. continue as before, not even a hiccup of real opposition. Obama will if elected continue present policies, a fact he doesn&#8217;t make any attempt to conceal. Clinton at least made Promises &amp; elevated Tokens but Obama doesn&#8217;t bother, why should he when he&#8217;s got unaminous support of every Black Democrat on the (virtual)  Plantation. </p>
<p>Like I say, I don&#8217;t pretend to know what the answer is, but whatever it is it starts by severing all ties to all Democrats, no more footsie-footsie. And by recognizing that this is a global, international problem so you have to stop kidding yourself that by ignoring everything outside your  &#8220;local&#8221; attention span you&#8217;re anything but part of the problem.</p>
<p>No, it&#8217;s not enough to try to &#8220;live Green&#8221;. Jesus what bs. Now we have Green real estate developers, who get their Long Green from the same NYC bankers as the rest of them. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know where Max lives, &amp; don&#8217;t care, but wherever it is, economic life is controlled by the Imperial Center, just like life in Gaza or Haiti. Unless of course he&#8217;s posting from somewhere in the imperial orbit of the Middle Kingdom? Iran, maybe? Which exhausts the options I know of. </p>
<p>A bunch of crazed maniacs now control the levers of Power, that is the DOD, Executive Security industry, &#8220;Intelligence&#8221; &#8220;community&#8221; (what a phrase). By keeping your head down &amp; trying to be Eco-friendly it&#8217;s possible to escape coming to their notice &#8212; if you happen to have a means of existence in an area they&#8217;re not focussing Ethnic Cleansing efforts on at the moment. Which is why I&#8217;m able to say stuff like this without expecting a  knock on the door at 4AM tomorrow. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s see, what can I think of to post that will convince unsympathetic readers that I&#8217;m just a harmless old crackpot?</p>
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		<title>By: Ahmet Zappa</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-22095</link>
		<dc:creator>Ahmet Zappa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 04:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-22095</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your contribution.  As a Buddhist, world peace is the most important thing in the world.  As a Deadhead, we have a communal feeling and peaceful gatherings opposed to a "Stormbringer" concert.

If you vote for John McCain, you are voting for a hundred year war and many deaths.  SOS.  Older guy.  And we are so stupid, we will elect him!  I hope it is not my child or your child who gets killed by a car bomb or roadside bomb for what?  ________ (please fill in)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your contribution.  As a Buddhist, world peace is the most important thing in the world.  As a Deadhead, we have a communal feeling and peaceful gatherings opposed to a &#8220;Stormbringer&#8221; concert.</p>
<p>If you vote for John McCain, you are voting for a hundred year war and many deaths.  SOS.  Older guy.  And we are so stupid, we will elect him!  I hope it is not my child or your child who gets killed by a car bomb or roadside bomb for what?  ________ (please fill in)</p>
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		<title>By: GL Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-22087</link>
		<dc:creator>GL Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 03:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-22087</guid>
		<description>Someone asked about Cindy Sheehan's campaign.  The latest I've found is more than a week old:

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/06/cindy_sheehan_c.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone asked about Cindy Sheehan&#8217;s campaign.  The latest I&#8217;ve found is more than a week old:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/06/cindy_sheehan_c.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2008/06/cindy_sheehan_c.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-22081</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-22081</guid>
		<description>Dan e, if I told you, you'd just laugh at me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan e, if I told you, you&#8217;d just laugh at me.</p>
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		<title>By: dan e</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-22067</link>
		<dc:creator>dan e</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-22067</guid>
		<description>oh jesus. such confusion, so much muddled thinking.

beware false aggregations: "the left", "America", "We", "progressives", "the antiwar movement", "the Free World", "The Media". Expressions like "the white man", "the American Woman of Today". 

Why not discuss the roles of specific organizations, candidates, public figures? Such as Progressive Democrats of  America, UFPJ, ANSWER/PSL/FPA, the Green Pty, Nader &#38; supporters, who hope you'll forget Cynthia McKinney exists, ditto GP, also the three others vying for the GP Nomination. 

Isn't it obvious that all the "antiwar" honchae continue to hold hands with Democratic officeholders/candidates/punditutes/operatives? Even Cynthia McKinney's webpage has an article by Head Rat of 2004 David Cobb: "AnybodybutBush, so All Out For Kerry!"  I tend to have considerable faith in Cynthia as an individual, so giving benefit of doubt until after July 10 GP Convention in Chicago: if once she wins their Nomination, the GPers will get off their, uh, hands &#38; actively support her, she might get enough visibility to make the whole exercise worth the energy investment. But don't hold yr breath: the Blackout on the McKinney candidacy, in which Nader is a key participant, is almost 100pct effective so far. 

 Cindy Sheehan: is she still on the PDA Steering Cmte? Still a fan of Tom Hayden?

Lloyd, I'm definitely with you re "pre-1942". As a certified depression baby, everything since the mid-nineties is to me just the aftermath. That is if I'm not really dead already &#38; all this is my expiring dream:)

Well, all I gotta say, if you don't like what's going on but you still socialize with Demock-rats, you're willynilly still part of the problem. 

Like the first rule is Do No Harm? Or do as little as possible? It's impossible to live as a critter on this planet without harming other living beings, but can't we all at least refrain from killing beings who bleed same way we do, and stop legitimizing these Dumbocrat politicians &#38; those who brownnose them, like Karen Bernal, Norman Solomon, Media Benjamin? Stop tailing along behind them, stop being Extras in their Dog &#38; Pony productions? Such as these corny "vigils" described in a comment above?

Better you shld stay home, or get together with a cpl friends &#38; try seriously to understand what's going on.

If you figger it out, do let me know, need all the help I can get:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh jesus. such confusion, so much muddled thinking.</p>
<p>beware false aggregations: &#8220;the left&#8221;, &#8220;America&#8221;, &#8220;We&#8221;, &#8220;progressives&#8221;, &#8220;the antiwar movement&#8221;, &#8220;the Free World&#8221;, &#8220;The Media&#8221;. Expressions like &#8220;the white man&#8221;, &#8220;the American Woman of Today&#8221;. </p>
<p>Why not discuss the roles of specific organizations, candidates, public figures? Such as Progressive Democrats of  America, UFPJ, ANSWER/PSL/FPA, the Green Pty, Nader &amp; supporters, who hope you&#8217;ll forget Cynthia McKinney exists, ditto GP, also the three others vying for the GP Nomination. </p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t it obvious that all the &#8220;antiwar&#8221; honchae continue to hold hands with Democratic officeholders/candidates/punditutes/operatives? Even Cynthia McKinney&#8217;s webpage has an article by Head Rat of 2004 David Cobb: &#8220;AnybodybutBush, so All Out For Kerry!&#8221;  I tend to have considerable faith in Cynthia as an individual, so giving benefit of doubt until after July 10 GP Convention in Chicago: if once she wins their Nomination, the GPers will get off their, uh, hands &amp; actively support her, she might get enough visibility to make the whole exercise worth the energy investment. But don&#8217;t hold yr breath: the Blackout on the McKinney candidacy, in which Nader is a key participant, is almost 100pct effective so far. </p>
<p> Cindy Sheehan: is she still on the PDA Steering Cmte? Still a fan of Tom Hayden?</p>
<p>Lloyd, I&#8217;m definitely with you re &#8220;pre-1942&#8243;. As a certified depression baby, everything since the mid-nineties is to me just the aftermath. That is if I&#8217;m not really dead already &amp; all this is my expiring dream:)</p>
<p>Well, all I gotta say, if you don&#8217;t like what&#8217;s going on but you still socialize with Demock-rats, you&#8217;re willynilly still part of the problem. </p>
<p>Like the first rule is Do No Harm? Or do as little as possible? It&#8217;s impossible to live as a critter on this planet without harming other living beings, but can&#8217;t we all at least refrain from killing beings who bleed same way we do, and stop legitimizing these Dumbocrat politicians &amp; those who brownnose them, like Karen Bernal, Norman Solomon, Media Benjamin? Stop tailing along behind them, stop being Extras in their Dog &amp; Pony productions? Such as these corny &#8220;vigils&#8221; described in a comment above?</p>
<p>Better you shld stay home, or get together with a cpl friends &amp; try seriously to understand what&#8217;s going on.</p>
<p>If you figger it out, do let me know, need all the help I can get:)</p>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21981</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21981</guid>
		<description>Max is right. It all starts at home. Hard to be a 'citizen of the world,'  if you're not a citizen at home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Max is right. It all starts at home. Hard to be a &#8216;citizen of the world,&#8217;  if you&#8217;re not a citizen at home.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandy Baker</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21976</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandy Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 14:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21976</guid>
		<description>I think that the point that Myles brings up about the anti-war movement being "too nice" is spot on. I see the signs at these vigils, "Bring the troops home", "Out of Iraq", etc and they are now bland slogans with no punch. Pretty platitudes. Months ago, an anti war protestor was with a group in front of Barbara Mikulski's house and she had a great sign: pictures of dead Iraqi children and a caption that read: "Barbara Mikulski, YOU are responsible for this." Many other peaceniks would consider this an act of violence. I know, pretty dumb. Also, there were some peaceniks who felt that protesting in front of Mikulski's house was too confrontational so while they were doing that on Fridays, there was another group down the street in front of Homewood protesting. 

Also, the peace movement here in Baltimore gets very defensive when you bring up the anti-war movement's support for the Democratic Party and their failure to hold them accountable, a core reason why the movement is so ineffective. Citizens For Peace, a Baltimore City anti-war group that really exists on-line more than anything else, kicked Myles off of a listserv when he and I were both bringing up the fact that the anti-war movement needed to stand up to the Democratic Party and that in 2008 we should exercise the power of negation and vote third party or independent. We were accused of "trying to divide the peace movement" and causing trouble. Divide what? is my question. Unity with no discussion of strategy is the only way they will operate. 

Also, we were protesting outside of cardin's office with some of them about a year ago and they gave a list of demands to Cardin's rep. They were so nice to him and they treated him like gold because he was a Quaker. being nice to these people or their representatives is a slap in the face to the millions who are dead because of Bush and the Democratic Party. At a UFPJ demo in spring 07, Myles and I went up to the representatives of Feingold, Hager, and a couple of other eps and said (screamed), "Where the fuck were your guys when this was starting? Why the fuck didn't they do anything hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis ago?" Fuck Feingold and Hager and the others. Having their aides holding signs doesn't do anything. They should be holding press conferences every day demanding that Congress end this. It's so sad that our standards are so low. 

We have to accept that the anti-war movement at its very core are partisan Democrats. So few were out when Clinton was bombing Iraq. I don't mean that we should be all holy about their absence during Clinton. People became  more progressive because of this current war and future wars will be hard to sell as a result. But this shift to the left has no voice because the anti-war movement won't do what it takes to end this. We have to protest Obama everywhere he goes, saying that he MUST promise to end the war immediately when he takes office or we'll vote for McKinney or Nader.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the point that Myles brings up about the anti-war movement being &#8220;too nice&#8221; is spot on. I see the signs at these vigils, &#8220;Bring the troops home&#8221;, &#8220;Out of Iraq&#8221;, etc and they are now bland slogans with no punch. Pretty platitudes. Months ago, an anti war protestor was with a group in front of Barbara Mikulski&#8217;s house and she had a great sign: pictures of dead Iraqi children and a caption that read: &#8220;Barbara Mikulski, YOU are responsible for this.&#8221; Many other peaceniks would consider this an act of violence. I know, pretty dumb. Also, there were some peaceniks who felt that protesting in front of Mikulski&#8217;s house was too confrontational so while they were doing that on Fridays, there was another group down the street in front of Homewood protesting. </p>
<p>Also, the peace movement here in Baltimore gets very defensive when you bring up the anti-war movement&#8217;s support for the Democratic Party and their failure to hold them accountable, a core reason why the movement is so ineffective. Citizens For Peace, a Baltimore City anti-war group that really exists on-line more than anything else, kicked Myles off of a listserv when he and I were both bringing up the fact that the anti-war movement needed to stand up to the Democratic Party and that in 2008 we should exercise the power of negation and vote third party or independent. We were accused of &#8220;trying to divide the peace movement&#8221; and causing trouble. Divide what? is my question. Unity with no discussion of strategy is the only way they will operate. </p>
<p>Also, we were protesting outside of cardin&#8217;s office with some of them about a year ago and they gave a list of demands to Cardin&#8217;s rep. They were so nice to him and they treated him like gold because he was a Quaker. being nice to these people or their representatives is a slap in the face to the millions who are dead because of Bush and the Democratic Party. At a UFPJ demo in spring 07, Myles and I went up to the representatives of Feingold, Hager, and a couple of other eps and said (screamed), &#8220;Where the fuck were your guys when this was starting? Why the fuck didn&#8217;t they do anything hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis ago?&#8221; Fuck Feingold and Hager and the others. Having their aides holding signs doesn&#8217;t do anything. They should be holding press conferences every day demanding that Congress end this. It&#8217;s so sad that our standards are so low. </p>
<p>We have to accept that the anti-war movement at its very core are partisan Democrats. So few were out when Clinton was bombing Iraq. I don&#8217;t mean that we should be all holy about their absence during Clinton. People became  more progressive because of this current war and future wars will be hard to sell as a result. But this shift to the left has no voice because the anti-war movement won&#8217;t do what it takes to end this. We have to protest Obama everywhere he goes, saying that he MUST promise to end the war immediately when he takes office or we&#8217;ll vote for McKinney or Nader.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21974</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21974</guid>
		<description>Bingo again and hurray for you, Max.  But don't spend too much of your mental energy demolishing possible provocateurs, we need you fresh as possible every day for as long as you can be.  And nota bene: If you were born before 1942, like I was...daytime naps can be good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bingo again and hurray for you, Max.  But don&#8217;t spend too much of your mental energy demolishing possible provocateurs, we need you fresh as possible every day for as long as you can be.  And nota bene: If you were born before 1942, like I was&#8230;daytime naps can be good.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Shields</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21972</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Shields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21972</guid>
		<description>Giorgio: "But then where is his [Paul's] support from the Progressive Left?"

From what I know of Ron Paul he is not progressive. But more to your point - HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?

While you make these claims, Deadbeat bashes the generic left with not keeping the "voters" glued to Nader in 2004. He has a point if Michael Moore is the poster child for the progressive left.

We know there is NO monolithic LEFT or PROGRESSIVE in the United States of Amerika. So, why play these silly games?

The dominate system is rigged and the vast majority of  voters, such as they are, will not march off en mass and do a write-in for Paul or Nader.

Are we clear on that? Let me repeat, the system is rigged! It is owned by the mighty special interest/elites, mostly corporate and yea, AIPAC has it's mighty say. The rest is a waste of time because fundamental social and economic justice kind of change will not happen by using the SYSTEM THAT IS RIGGED!!!!

Instead, I submit, that change is only possible at the local level. Eye ball to eye ball.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Giorgio: &#8220;But then where is his [Paul's] support from the Progressive Left?&#8221;</p>
<p>From what I know of Ron Paul he is not progressive. But more to your point - HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?</p>
<p>While you make these claims, Deadbeat bashes the generic left with not keeping the &#8220;voters&#8221; glued to Nader in 2004. He has a point if Michael Moore is the poster child for the progressive left.</p>
<p>We know there is NO monolithic LEFT or PROGRESSIVE in the United States of Amerika. So, why play these silly games?</p>
<p>The dominate system is rigged and the vast majority of  voters, such as they are, will not march off en mass and do a write-in for Paul or Nader.</p>
<p>Are we clear on that? Let me repeat, the system is rigged! It is owned by the mighty special interest/elites, mostly corporate and yea, AIPAC has it&#8217;s mighty say. The rest is a waste of time because fundamental social and economic justice kind of change will not happen by using the SYSTEM THAT IS RIGGED!!!!</p>
<p>Instead, I submit, that change is only possible at the local level. Eye ball to eye ball.</p>
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		<title>By: Giorgio</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21966</link>
		<dc:creator>Giorgio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21966</guid>
		<description>"I’m not advocating a violent revolution, but a transformative one." so says Max Shields. 

Well, mate, that's precisely what Ron Paul IS advocating!
But then where is his support from the Progressive Left?  Virtually 'Zilch'....
The problem with most of you guys, peace-lovers,  whitewash your consciences by ranting  about it but deep down in your subconscious are only too glad to garner the benefits of imperialism....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’m not advocating a violent revolution, but a transformative one.&#8221; so says Max Shields. </p>
<p>Well, mate, that&#8217;s precisely what Ron Paul IS advocating!<br />
But then where is his support from the Progressive Left?  Virtually &#8216;Zilch&#8217;&#8230;.<br />
The problem with most of you guys, peace-lovers,  whitewash your consciences by ranting  about it but deep down in your subconscious are only too glad to garner the benefits of imperialism&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21957</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21957</guid>
		<description>Lloyd, this is the best I could do. It is very short but does have a name and the comments are very personal and insightful. 
An incredible event to be totally disregarded by our 'fourth estate,' which in reality is a fourth rate estate.

http://blogs.chicagoreader.com/post-no-bills/2006/11/07/malachi-ritschers-apparent-suicide/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lloyd, this is the best I could do. It is very short but does have a name and the comments are very personal and insightful.<br />
An incredible event to be totally disregarded by our &#8216;fourth estate,&#8217; which in reality is a fourth rate estate.</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.chicagoreader.com/post-no-bills/2006/11/07/malachi-ritschers-apparent-suicide/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.chicagoreader.com/post-no-bills/2006/11/07/malachi-ritschers-apparent-suicide/</a></p>
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		<title>By: GL Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21952</link>
		<dc:creator>GL Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21952</guid>
		<description>so, deadbeat, what about their motives -- as opposed to their emotions and judgments, in your eyes -- do you think makes lefties despicable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so, deadbeat, what about their motives &#8212; as opposed to their emotions and judgments, in your eyes &#8212; do you think makes lefties despicable?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: GL Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21951</link>
		<dc:creator>GL Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21951</guid>
		<description>Jesus hp do you know who wrote it?  

November of 2006 was two months after I discontinued Depakote and Lamictal.   I was still pretty fucked-up, but it looks like almost nobody else read it either.  An incredible piece of writing that somehow omits poor what's-his-name (who was holding his 2(?) year old daughter but pushed her away) outside big Mac's pentagon window.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesus hp do you know who wrote it?  </p>
<p>November of 2006 was two months after I discontinued Depakote and Lamictal.   I was still pretty fucked-up, but it looks like almost nobody else read it either.  An incredible piece of writing that somehow omits poor what&#8217;s-his-name (who was holding his 2(?) year old daughter but pushed her away) outside big Mac&#8217;s pentagon window.</p>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21948</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21948</guid>
		<description>Lloyd, remember this? If you do, you're rare.  Everyone I ask about this looks at me like I'm crazy. That's beside the point.. 

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112706T.shtml</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lloyd, remember this? If you do, you&#8217;re rare.  Everyone I ask about this looks at me like I&#8217;m crazy. That&#8217;s beside the point.. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112706T.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/112706T.shtml</a></p>
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		<title>By: Deadbeat</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21947</link>
		<dc:creator>Deadbeat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21947</guid>
		<description>ILoveCorporations says...
&lt;i&gt;Thanks to 9/11, protesting just isn’t as fun or as safe as it used to be. Rally anywhere but designated “free speech zones” and you risk going to jail or worse.&lt;/i&gt;

There was a vibrant anti-war movement in 2003 -- two years after 9/11.  However the "left" is very much at fault for its demobilization.

Ms. Jackowski says...
&lt;i&gt;Voting would change the outcome if dems/repubs were voted out of the Congress. Yes, the voters are to blame for not voting for Nader.&lt;/i&gt;

Let's see in 2000 the "left" embraced Nader's campaign and he garnered 4-5% of the vote.  Then in 2004 the "left" abandoned him as well as the anti-war movement and left a political vacuum now being filled by Obama.

***
The point is when there was a huge interest among the "voters" (populous) to stop the war and to engage in the drive to war (and it was NOT for oil) the "left" chose to demobilize and diffuse that energy to elect ABBer John Kerry.  Since 2004, the "left" had done nothing to re-energize and to reignite it.  The abandonment of Nader in 2004 by the "left" (including such notable like Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn),  created a tremendous vacuum.  The only real "organizing" that occurred during this period wasn't on the "left" but the "liberals" (such as DailyKos) who filled it with Barack Obama.

Now the "left" is pissed off'ed that people are lining up behind Obama because when he is contracted against Hillary Clinton and John McCain he looks as "progressive" as Robert Kennedy -- how's that for irony.

Yet Ms. Jackowski has the audacity to fault the "voters" when they in fact took the initiative to get out and PROTEST while the "left" was finding all kinds of ways to disengage.

I thank the author for posting this article but please don't be too hard on citizens when the so-called "left" leaders played a HUGE role in fostering the current political alignment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ILoveCorporations says&#8230;<br />
<i>Thanks to 9/11, protesting just isn’t as fun or as safe as it used to be. Rally anywhere but designated “free speech zones” and you risk going to jail or worse.</i></p>
<p>There was a vibrant anti-war movement in 2003 &#8212; two years after 9/11.  However the &#8220;left&#8221; is very much at fault for its demobilization.</p>
<p>Ms. Jackowski says&#8230;<br />
<i>Voting would change the outcome if dems/repubs were voted out of the Congress. Yes, the voters are to blame for not voting for Nader.</i></p>
<p>Let&#8217;s see in 2000 the &#8220;left&#8221; embraced Nader&#8217;s campaign and he garnered 4-5% of the vote.  Then in 2004 the &#8220;left&#8221; abandoned him as well as the anti-war movement and left a political vacuum now being filled by Obama.</p>
<p>***<br />
The point is when there was a huge interest among the &#8220;voters&#8221; (populous) to stop the war and to engage in the drive to war (and it was NOT for oil) the &#8220;left&#8221; chose to demobilize and diffuse that energy to elect ABBer John Kerry.  Since 2004, the &#8220;left&#8221; had done nothing to re-energize and to reignite it.  The abandonment of Nader in 2004 by the &#8220;left&#8221; (including such notable like Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn),  created a tremendous vacuum.  The only real &#8220;organizing&#8221; that occurred during this period wasn&#8217;t on the &#8220;left&#8221; but the &#8220;liberals&#8221; (such as DailyKos) who filled it with Barack Obama.</p>
<p>Now the &#8220;left&#8221; is pissed off&#8217;ed that people are lining up behind Obama because when he is contracted against Hillary Clinton and John McCain he looks as &#8220;progressive&#8221; as Robert Kennedy &#8212; how&#8217;s that for irony.</p>
<p>Yet Ms. Jackowski has the audacity to fault the &#8220;voters&#8221; when they in fact took the initiative to get out and PROTEST while the &#8220;left&#8221; was finding all kinds of ways to disengage.</p>
<p>I thank the author for posting this article but please don&#8217;t be too hard on citizens when the so-called &#8220;left&#8221; leaders played a HUGE role in fostering the current political alignment.</p>
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		<title>By: GL Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21945</link>
		<dc:creator>GL Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21945</guid>
		<description>The larger truth is that a war has never been stopped by voters.  And the Chipmunk is still employing the falling dominoes theory: if aggression in one country (Iraq) is seen as failing and the public is rumbling, attack an adjacent country (Iran).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The larger truth is that a war has never been stopped by voters.  And the Chipmunk is still employing the falling dominoes theory: if aggression in one country (Iraq) is seen as failing and the public is rumbling, attack an adjacent country (Iran).</p>
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		<title>By: GL Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21944</link>
		<dc:creator>GL Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21944</guid>
		<description>There was also a self-immolation (in 1966?) outside Robert McNamara's window at the Pentagon, Myles.  And it was given significant play in Errol Morris' The Fog of War-Eleven Lessons from the Vietnam War (2004).  That act was of course a response to previous self-immolations by Buddhists in South Vietnam, and my recollection is that it had a considerable impact on public opinion in America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was also a self-immolation (in 1966?) outside Robert McNamara&#8217;s window at the Pentagon, Myles.  And it was given significant play in Errol Morris&#8217; The Fog of War-Eleven Lessons from the Vietnam War (2004).  That act was of course a response to previous self-immolations by Buddhists in South Vietnam, and my recollection is that it had a considerable impact on public opinion in America.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Shields</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/where-is-the-antiiwar-movement/#comment-21941</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Shields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2147#comment-21941</guid>
		<description>Just a quick clarification: a two party system firmly entrenched does not provide any real change. While we don't have a real representative government we are light years away from a truly participatory one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a quick clarification: a two party system firmly entrenched does not provide any real change. While we don&#8217;t have a real representative government we are light years away from a truly participatory one.</p>
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