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	<title>Comments on: Nader Calls on Obama to Challenge the White Establishment</title>
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	<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/</link>
	<description>a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 04:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Eddie</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23293</link>
		<dc:creator>Eddie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 15:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23293</guid>
		<description>Kevin Zeese's article is yet another piece to cheer lead Barack.  I was trying to figure out what to say when I saw Kat had already said it all and then some:

Zeese's article doesn't treat Ralph like a candidate, he treats Ralph like Obama's lifecoach. 
If Nader's doing everything right (and I would say he is on issues), why is Zeese, after calling Barack out, then spending the remainder of the article rescuing Barack. With McCain, Barack, Ralph, Cynthia McKinney and Bob Barr in the general election, this is the best shot a third party candidate has ever had at a White House. So why is Kevin writing these "Dear Bambi" letters to Barack instead of following the calling up by pointing out the candidates who are standing for something?

He relegates Ralph to a lifecoach, to part of the Obama campaign. That's not right and it's not fair.
http://katskornerofthecommonills.blogspot.com/2008/06/kevin-zeese-ralph-nader.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin Zeese&#8217;s article is yet another piece to cheer lead Barack.  I was trying to figure out what to say when I saw Kat had already said it all and then some:</p>
<p>Zeese&#8217;s article doesn&#8217;t treat Ralph like a candidate, he treats Ralph like Obama&#8217;s lifecoach.<br />
If Nader&#8217;s doing everything right (and I would say he is on issues), why is Zeese, after calling Barack out, then spending the remainder of the article rescuing Barack. With McCain, Barack, Ralph, Cynthia McKinney and Bob Barr in the general election, this is the best shot a third party candidate has ever had at a White House. So why is Kevin writing these &#8220;Dear Bambi&#8221; letters to Barack instead of following the calling up by pointing out the candidates who are standing for something?</p>
<p>He relegates Ralph to a lifecoach, to part of the Obama campaign. That&#8217;s not right and it&#8217;s not fair.<br />
<a href="http://katskornerofthecommonills.blogspot.com/2008/06/kevin-zeese-ralph-nader.html" rel="nofollow">http://katskornerofthecommonills.blogspot.com/2008/06/kevin-zeese-ralph-nader.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Max Shields</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23188</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Shields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23188</guid>
		<description>"For example this year why didn’t Nader and McKinney run together."

Good question, but not for the left but for Nader and McKinney.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For example this year why didn’t Nader and McKinney run together.&#8221;</p>
<p>Good question, but not for the left but for Nader and McKinney.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Wells</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23184</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23184</guid>
		<description>To Deadbeat et al.
1. "The problem is the lack of cohesion amongst the disparate groups."

The existing "lack of cohesion" means that a common basis for the cohesion of seemingly disparate groups  has yet to be commonly recognized by these groups.

 The  organizational expression, to bring together millions of individuals and groups, into a united effort expressing the overwhelming will and needs of the American people. We need a new "umbrella" political party. A political party that is not controlled by corporate interests  that unites these otherwise atomized groups into a common political agenda and platform.

 These disparate groups do not lose their identity in joining this "umbrella" party. Instead they provide the "planks" to a common platform, activists and candidates to run for election at all levels of government to carry out the agenda of the new party.

What is the common basis for united and collective political organization and action?  Both Ralph Nader, in his opposition to the "corporatization" of the federal government is one individual voice.  Dennis Kucinich, in his opposition to the war in Iraq and his long-time opposition to privatization, is another voice . Cindy Sheehan, in leaving the Democratic Party and in her opposition to the Iraq war, is yet another individual expression.  Cynthia McCinney runs as an inviducal on the Green Party, with all it's long-term problems. 

The common fact is that the Democratic Party, the federal government, the foreign and domestic policy of the United States, is fundamentally controlled by the same corporate interests and agendas that own the Republican Party.  

The corporate agenda is to maximize the corporate profit and individual wealth of  the top 1%-5% within the U.S. and globally. This agenda has been in effect since  the 1970s, advanced  in 1991 with  collapse of the Soviet Union, became explicit in the Project for the New American Century, with Bush the agenda was triggered by 9/11 with now never ending war for oil, profit and hegememonic global power.

Instead of a government "of, by and for the people" we now have government "of, by and for the corporations".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Deadbeat et al.<br />
1. &#8220;The problem is the lack of cohesion amongst the disparate groups.&#8221;</p>
<p>The existing &#8220;lack of cohesion&#8221; means that a common basis for the cohesion of seemingly disparate groups  has yet to be commonly recognized by these groups.</p>
<p> The  organizational expression, to bring together millions of individuals and groups, into a united effort expressing the overwhelming will and needs of the American people. We need a new &#8220;umbrella&#8221; political party. A political party that is not controlled by corporate interests  that unites these otherwise atomized groups into a common political agenda and platform.</p>
<p> These disparate groups do not lose their identity in joining this &#8220;umbrella&#8221; party. Instead they provide the &#8220;planks&#8221; to a common platform, activists and candidates to run for election at all levels of government to carry out the agenda of the new party.</p>
<p>What is the common basis for united and collective political organization and action?  Both Ralph Nader, in his opposition to the &#8220;corporatization&#8221; of the federal government is one individual voice.  Dennis Kucinich, in his opposition to the war in Iraq and his long-time opposition to privatization, is another voice . Cindy Sheehan, in leaving the Democratic Party and in her opposition to the Iraq war, is yet another individual expression.  Cynthia McCinney runs as an inviducal on the Green Party, with all it&#8217;s long-term problems. </p>
<p>The common fact is that the Democratic Party, the federal government, the foreign and domestic policy of the United States, is fundamentally controlled by the same corporate interests and agendas that own the Republican Party.  </p>
<p>The corporate agenda is to maximize the corporate profit and individual wealth of  the top 1%-5% within the U.S. and globally. This agenda has been in effect since  the 1970s, advanced  in 1991 with  collapse of the Soviet Union, became explicit in the Project for the New American Century, with Bush the agenda was triggered by 9/11 with now never ending war for oil, profit and hegememonic global power.</p>
<p>Instead of a government &#8220;of, by and for the people&#8221; we now have government &#8220;of, by and for the corporations&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: evie</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23183</link>
		<dc:creator>evie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23183</guid>
		<description>Token rings a bell. Those are around. Is Obama a token? 

But I would say globally, the non-anglo percentage dining on the sacred cow is much much higher than 3%.

I'm not turning a blind eye to corporate wealthyfare - I would stop all subsidies. But remember - each and everyone of those corporations directly or indirectly is supplying jobs and/or products that you probably use every day. I'm set to survive without them, are the rest of my fellow Americans?

Perhaps your, or your parents or grandparents retirement funds are invested in those same companies, or the local teachers union, or federal employee pensions are invested in those wealthyfare corps. I know a few family farms, incorporated, board members are wife, hubby, adult children, who receive millions and have for 2 decades and yet their grandchildren are meth heads wrecking new cars and blowing the fortune their grandpappy built. They not exactly "agri-business" but they've gotten more welfare than they ever deserved. 

How many would feel the loss if wealthyfare ended? 

We had much worse conditions, as recently as the Great Depression and yet drugs/alcohol, domestic violence, absent fathers did not become a lifestyle for so many.

I know the costs for the typical welfare family is a small fraction of the domestic budget - but the cost in wasted lives and minds is much higher.

There are welfare queens and wealthyfare kings - I've no reason to support either of their lifestyles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Token rings a bell. Those are around. Is Obama a token? </p>
<p>But I would say globally, the non-anglo percentage dining on the sacred cow is much much higher than 3%.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not turning a blind eye to corporate wealthyfare - I would stop all subsidies. But remember - each and everyone of those corporations directly or indirectly is supplying jobs and/or products that you probably use every day. I&#8217;m set to survive without them, are the rest of my fellow Americans?</p>
<p>Perhaps your, or your parents or grandparents retirement funds are invested in those same companies, or the local teachers union, or federal employee pensions are invested in those wealthyfare corps. I know a few family farms, incorporated, board members are wife, hubby, adult children, who receive millions and have for 2 decades and yet their grandchildren are meth heads wrecking new cars and blowing the fortune their grandpappy built. They not exactly &#8220;agri-business&#8221; but they&#8217;ve gotten more welfare than they ever deserved. </p>
<p>How many would feel the loss if wealthyfare ended? </p>
<p>We had much worse conditions, as recently as the Great Depression and yet drugs/alcohol, domestic violence, absent fathers did not become a lifestyle for so many.</p>
<p>I know the costs for the typical welfare family is a small fraction of the domestic budget - but the cost in wasted lives and minds is much higher.</p>
<p>There are welfare queens and wealthyfare kings - I&#8217;ve no reason to support either of their lifestyles.</p>
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		<title>By: synicab12</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23180</link>
		<dc:creator>synicab12</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23180</guid>
		<description>evie said:
"Ap'parently many on the “left” would be shocked and awed at the number of black, brown, red, and yellow folks with wealth and power dining on the sacred establishment cow."
Yes, but what is the ratio .  It is no more than  3%.  Does the word "token" ring a bell. 
Yes,  irresponsible behaviour is more common in certain segements of the society but they do not have a monoply on it. As unemployment
and under-employment start to plague white people we start  noticing
drug use ,  alcoholism , family violence absent fathers etc ..etc start
to plague the white people too.
You seem to cling to the myth of "welfare queen" but turn blind eyes 
on the hundred of billions of dollars stolen by corporate America
from the public treasury  throuhg subsidies and tax breaks and privatizing of governmnents functions even fighting wars. More than half of the US personnel in Iraq are private contractors.  Few months ago , the oil companies with their exorbitant profits got seven billions dollars of tax rebates from Uncle Sam. And how about farm subsidies to Agri-busiess.
And I can go on and on .....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>evie said:<br />
&#8220;Ap&#8217;parently many on the “left” would be shocked and awed at the number of black, brown, red, and yellow folks with wealth and power dining on the sacred establishment cow.&#8221;<br />
Yes, but what is the ratio .  It is no more than  3%.  Does the word &#8220;token&#8221; ring a bell.<br />
Yes,  irresponsible behaviour is more common in certain segements of the society but they do not have a monoply on it. As unemployment<br />
and under-employment start to plague white people we start  noticing<br />
drug use ,  alcoholism , family violence absent fathers etc ..etc start<br />
to plague the white people too.<br />
You seem to cling to the myth of &#8220;welfare queen&#8221; but turn blind eyes<br />
on the hundred of billions of dollars stolen by corporate America<br />
from the public treasury  throuhg subsidies and tax breaks and privatizing of governmnents functions even fighting wars. More than half of the US personnel in Iraq are private contractors.  Few months ago , the oil companies with their exorbitant profits got seven billions dollars of tax rebates from Uncle Sam. And how about farm subsidies to Agri-busiess.<br />
And I can go on and on &#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: bozhidar balkas</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23174</link>
		<dc:creator>bozhidar balkas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23174</guid>
		<description>what wd  the commemnters say to following   statements: 
at least  50%  of  amers (or canadians) r just left of hitler.
and 45%  r  right  to varying  degree of   centrist position.
thus  it seems nader get's ab 5%  of the votes.
5%  of  the people (plutos) r s'mwhat right of hitler.
 and it is these  5% , the invisible hand, which  rules  'rica.
i'v been  thinkig  ab this  for  a while. so i said to me,  god  didn't make me rich or good; aybe he make me bad; so i'v  been praying to him  to make me a thief.
and u know the rest. thank u</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what wd  the commemnters say to following   statements:<br />
at least  50%  of  amers (or canadians) r just left of hitler.<br />
and 45%  r  right  to varying  degree of   centrist position.<br />
thus  it seems nader get&#8217;s ab 5%  of the votes.<br />
5%  of  the people (plutos) r s&#8217;mwhat right of hitler.<br />
 and it is these  5% , the invisible hand, which  rules  &#8216;rica.<br />
i&#8217;v been  thinkig  ab this  for  a while. so i said to me,  god  didn&#8217;t make me rich or good; aybe he make me bad; so i&#8217;v  been praying to him  to make me a thief.<br />
and u know the rest. thank u</p>
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		<title>By: Deadbeat</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23173</link>
		<dc:creator>Deadbeat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23173</guid>
		<description>The problem is the lack of cohesion amongst the disparate groups.  The last times we did see some cohesion was in 2000 (Nader's run) and the anti-war movement in 2003.

However the problem was the in-fighting and perhaps deliberate sabotage of these movement by the so-called "left".  Until people deal honestly with the today's issues I really don't see how much will change because such mass movement can easily be diffused due to these "single" issues.

For example this year why didn't Nader and McKinney run together.  That could have coalesced the left in some meaningful way.   The "left" has also been quite dishonest regarding Zionism and in fact diffused teh anti-war movement because of such challenges were being raised in 2003.

Nader himself has been tepid confronting Zionism as well so he really lacks credibility here criticizing Obama.   If he ran with McKinney he would have more credibility criticizing Obama wrt African Americans.

There has been a lot of criticism with electoral politics.   I agree with those critiques however since the left has show their own dishonesty and unwillingness to coalesce for many people on the margins, electoral politics is the only choice.   They cannot trust the "left" and see the "left" as yet another "special interest" group.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is the lack of cohesion amongst the disparate groups.  The last times we did see some cohesion was in 2000 (Nader&#8217;s run) and the anti-war movement in 2003.</p>
<p>However the problem was the in-fighting and perhaps deliberate sabotage of these movement by the so-called &#8220;left&#8221;.  Until people deal honestly with the today&#8217;s issues I really don&#8217;t see how much will change because such mass movement can easily be diffused due to these &#8220;single&#8221; issues.</p>
<p>For example this year why didn&#8217;t Nader and McKinney run together.  That could have coalesced the left in some meaningful way.   The &#8220;left&#8221; has also been quite dishonest regarding Zionism and in fact diffused teh anti-war movement because of such challenges were being raised in 2003.</p>
<p>Nader himself has been tepid confronting Zionism as well so he really lacks credibility here criticizing Obama.   If he ran with McKinney he would have more credibility criticizing Obama wrt African Americans.</p>
<p>There has been a lot of criticism with electoral politics.   I agree with those critiques however since the left has show their own dishonesty and unwillingness to coalesce for many people on the margins, electoral politics is the only choice.   They cannot trust the &#8220;left&#8221; and see the &#8220;left&#8221; as yet another &#8220;special interest&#8221; group.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Wells</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23171</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23171</guid>
		<description>Nothing will change until the corporate controlled two party system is smashed. A new second party, NOT a new third party. 

A new anti-war, an anti-corporate People's Peace Party that brings together the millions of activists now isolated and atomized into single-issue groups. 

Individualistic campaigns attempting to make a basic reform of  the Democratic Party Dennis Kucinich, or Marcy Winograd PDA against Jane Harmon) are mainly doomed to failure. The corporate control of the Democratic Party is absolute on core issues designed to maintain the profit of the privatized health care system, the profit of the military industrial complex.

Moving outside the Democratic Party as independents or as a third party candidates has been an unending failure. Ralph Nader, or perhaps a Cindy Sheehan,  are individualistic campaigns which exclude active participation of the masses of people and organizations who are now bitterly opposed to the status quo.

Individualistic campaigns, not matter how immediatelyare inevitably  doomed as they can never  match the  economic, media, infrastructure, people or power resources of a multi-million dollar party.

Individuals are forever limited by the health, intelligence, education, or sheer physical capacities of the individual. The individual's political perspective
is forever limited, unable to comprehend the vast scope of issues with an expertise expected of a political leader. The individual political leader is subject to corruption, assassination, senility, and disease, physical and mental.

I am opposed to all individualistic campaigns as they are doomed to failure.
I am opposed individualistic campaigns because it does not build a movement to continue and greatly expand the goals of the movement beyond the views of any particular individual.

A massive political movement against the status quo exists. The elements of this movement are embodied in single-issue groups, activist groups and individuals who are forever without power because they are forever atomized. There is no organization such as a political party that unites these individuals and groups
into a force to take political power away from the corporate political parties.

What is to be done before and after the day after the November election? Await for the next war, the next assault upon our ability to live and survive?  More of the same ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing will change until the corporate controlled two party system is smashed. A new second party, NOT a new third party. </p>
<p>A new anti-war, an anti-corporate People&#8217;s Peace Party that brings together the millions of activists now isolated and atomized into single-issue groups. </p>
<p>Individualistic campaigns attempting to make a basic reform of  the Democratic Party Dennis Kucinich, or Marcy Winograd PDA against Jane Harmon) are mainly doomed to failure. The corporate control of the Democratic Party is absolute on core issues designed to maintain the profit of the privatized health care system, the profit of the military industrial complex.</p>
<p>Moving outside the Democratic Party as independents or as a third party candidates has been an unending failure. Ralph Nader, or perhaps a Cindy Sheehan,  are individualistic campaigns which exclude active participation of the masses of people and organizations who are now bitterly opposed to the status quo.</p>
<p>Individualistic campaigns, not matter how immediatelyare inevitably  doomed as they can never  match the  economic, media, infrastructure, people or power resources of a multi-million dollar party.</p>
<p>Individuals are forever limited by the health, intelligence, education, or sheer physical capacities of the individual. The individual&#8217;s political perspective<br />
is forever limited, unable to comprehend the vast scope of issues with an expertise expected of a political leader. The individual political leader is subject to corruption, assassination, senility, and disease, physical and mental.</p>
<p>I am opposed to all individualistic campaigns as they are doomed to failure.<br />
I am opposed individualistic campaigns because it does not build a movement to continue and greatly expand the goals of the movement beyond the views of any particular individual.</p>
<p>A massive political movement against the status quo exists. The elements of this movement are embodied in single-issue groups, activist groups and individuals who are forever without power because they are forever atomized. There is no organization such as a political party that unites these individuals and groups<br />
into a force to take political power away from the corporate political parties.</p>
<p>What is to be done before and after the day after the November election? Await for the next war, the next assault upon our ability to live and survive?  More of the same ?</p>
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		<title>By: evie</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23166</link>
		<dc:creator>evie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23166</guid>
		<description>Excuse me, should be "the only thing local is the yokels."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse me, should be &#8220;the only thing local is the yokels.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: evie</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23165</link>
		<dc:creator>evie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23165</guid>
		<description>Chomsky, among thousands of others, is the "relief valve" that allows millions to think someone "speaks for them." Doesn't matter if he is speaking or not - only matters that "dissidents" believe someone is speaking out who "gets it." And many folks believe Noam "gets it." Thousands can and will take his place in the ivory tower, courtesy of the ruling class.

It's not about the US empire anymore.

The "empire" is not "unraveling." It simply is going global. Eventually, reps from regional "unions" (EU, NAU, SAU, AU) will hold court somewhere, likely Brussels - and determine how the world is run most profitably. 

I think some folks misunderstood the mantra "think local, act globally." The corporate and global ruling class has been acting globally for a long long time. The only think local are the yokels.

All while the peons are parsing the meanings of their ruling class packaged heroes and villains and one "ism' or another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chomsky, among thousands of others, is the &#8220;relief valve&#8221; that allows millions to think someone &#8220;speaks for them.&#8221; Doesn&#8217;t matter if he is speaking or not - only matters that &#8220;dissidents&#8221; believe someone is speaking out who &#8220;gets it.&#8221; And many folks believe Noam &#8220;gets it.&#8221; Thousands can and will take his place in the ivory tower, courtesy of the ruling class.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not about the US empire anymore.</p>
<p>The &#8220;empire&#8221; is not &#8220;unraveling.&#8221; It simply is going global. Eventually, reps from regional &#8220;unions&#8221; (EU, NAU, SAU, AU) will hold court somewhere, likely Brussels - and determine how the world is run most profitably. </p>
<p>I think some folks misunderstood the mantra &#8220;think local, act globally.&#8221; The corporate and global ruling class has been acting globally for a long long time. The only think local are the yokels.</p>
<p>All while the peons are parsing the meanings of their ruling class packaged heroes and villains and one &#8220;ism&#8217; or another.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Shields</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23161</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Shields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23161</guid>
		<description>Lloyd,
So what happens when next stop is Somalia or Pakistan?

The problem with taking this government on one war at a time is that it never ends. Iraq occupation is a symptom. What makes Iraq a little unique,  is not that we're in Iraq. It's that Bush botched the invasion/occupation so that it stayed on the front pages too long. The other 700 bases and centuries of American conquest and occupation managed to bounce around unnoticed, except by a few who paid some attention. The empire is unraveling and Iraq will be part of it but the demise began long before.

A single occupation is far from what ails this country. Nader's attacking the corporate fascistic state takes aim at the root. I don't think you can undo this with an election or changing the faces in Washington.

As far as Chomsky being part of a leftiest "ruling class", what the hell does that mean? What relief valve is he stewarding? He talks, he writes books. If he were to die tomorrow would the flood gates open? The whole country is under a relief valve that Chomsky has absolutely nothing to do with. Some make far too much of this guy. He makes some good points and some tepid ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lloyd,<br />
So what happens when next stop is Somalia or Pakistan?</p>
<p>The problem with taking this government on one war at a time is that it never ends. Iraq occupation is a symptom. What makes Iraq a little unique,  is not that we&#8217;re in Iraq. It&#8217;s that Bush botched the invasion/occupation so that it stayed on the front pages too long. The other 700 bases and centuries of American conquest and occupation managed to bounce around unnoticed, except by a few who paid some attention. The empire is unraveling and Iraq will be part of it but the demise began long before.</p>
<p>A single occupation is far from what ails this country. Nader&#8217;s attacking the corporate fascistic state takes aim at the root. I don&#8217;t think you can undo this with an election or changing the faces in Washington.</p>
<p>As far as Chomsky being part of a leftiest &#8220;ruling class&#8221;, what the hell does that mean? What relief valve is he stewarding? He talks, he writes books. If he were to die tomorrow would the flood gates open? The whole country is under a relief valve that Chomsky has absolutely nothing to do with. Some make far too much of this guy. He makes some good points and some tepid ones.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23147</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23147</guid>
		<description>No, no.  Kevin Zeese.  The problem is that Nader as well as Obama doesn't see that THE IRAQ OCCUPATION is one, enormous issue -- and it's the only issue that cuts to the heart of everything else.  Until that occupation is ended, it's kaput for Americans in America and everywhere else in the world.

Wake the fuck up!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, no.  Kevin Zeese.  The problem is that Nader as well as Obama doesn&#8217;t see that THE IRAQ OCCUPATION is one, enormous issue &#8212; and it&#8217;s the only issue that cuts to the heart of everything else.  Until that occupation is ended, it&#8217;s kaput for Americans in America and everywhere else in the world.</p>
<p>Wake the fuck up!!</p>
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		<title>By: evie</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23137</link>
		<dc:creator>evie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 05:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23137</guid>
		<description>John Anderson was an Independent.
Ross Perot was an Independent.
Angus King was an Independent.
Sam Houston was an Independent.
James B. Longley was an Independent.
Henry Howell was an Independent.
Harry F. Byrd, Jr. is an Independent.
Jim Jeffords is an Independent.
Bernie Sanders is an Independent.
Joe Lieberman is an Independent.
Michael Bloomberg is an Independent.

End of discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Anderson was an Independent.<br />
Ross Perot was an Independent.<br />
Angus King was an Independent.<br />
Sam Houston was an Independent.<br />
James B. Longley was an Independent.<br />
Henry Howell was an Independent.<br />
Harry F. Byrd, Jr. is an Independent.<br />
Jim Jeffords is an Independent.<br />
Bernie Sanders is an Independent.<br />
Joe Lieberman is an Independent.<br />
Michael Bloomberg is an Independent.</p>
<p>End of discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: evie</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23129</link>
		<dc:creator>evie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 03:13:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23129</guid>
		<description>boz
I understand I think. Most everyone I know are their own boss - with own small business or in professional fields where they were able to eventually open their own office, practice, etc. And some of my neighbors sell crafts, foods, childcare services etc. to make their living and be their own boss. 

Of course the ruling class makes it harder - it's more profitable to them.

But no leaders or rulers are going to make it easy. We must stopping thinking any "ism" (or leader) will make life free and easy b/c it won't.

Chomsky and those like him are part of the ruling class "left". He's a vent on the pressure cooker, a relief valve. There's always plenty of voices to speak for and explain things to the peasantry - but nothing really changes does it. 

Personally, I think the government itself brings in most of the drugs. Good for profits and good for dumbing down the serfs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>boz<br />
I understand I think. Most everyone I know are their own boss - with own small business or in professional fields where they were able to eventually open their own office, practice, etc. And some of my neighbors sell crafts, foods, childcare services etc. to make their living and be their own boss. </p>
<p>Of course the ruling class makes it harder - it&#8217;s more profitable to them.</p>
<p>But no leaders or rulers are going to make it easy. We must stopping thinking any &#8220;ism&#8221; (or leader) will make life free and easy b/c it won&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Chomsky and those like him are part of the ruling class &#8220;left&#8221;. He&#8217;s a vent on the pressure cooker, a relief valve. There&#8217;s always plenty of voices to speak for and explain things to the peasantry - but nothing really changes does it. </p>
<p>Personally, I think the government itself brings in most of the drugs. Good for profits and good for dumbing down the serfs.</p>
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		<title>By: bozhidar balkas</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23121</link>
		<dc:creator>bozhidar balkas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23121</guid>
		<description>evie,
i cannot further clarify  the notion (some wd evaluate it as  fact)  that people who r mentally/physically capable love to work  and especially if they own shop/work or field/work.
in capitalistic  system  people work only as hard as the boss  demands.
and why, for humanities, do we have bosses and private ownership?
we do because most of us  don't possess work.  if we  possesed  work we'd command selves how hard and long to work.
this right, right to work  w.o. supervision,  had been taken away from us.
even  now  a person  has no right  to his body/life.  if plutocrats want war they can  conscript.
which means ur body/pursuit for happiness/peace has been  arbitriraly abrogated.
these notions or, rather, facts r fundmentals  of life.
u say  "drugs  have always been w. us". yes, but not as much as now.
u also said, " U can take or leave drugs"
that is true.
however, i was talking ab manufacture, transportation, delivery  of  heroin and coke and  why US  having ab 10mn bodies  in  cia, fbi, city police, and  troops cannot stop drugs from coming in.
my answer is (and chomsky's)  ruling class likes it that way.  
may i tell  u why elementary schooling  is mandatory but not college or university? do i  need to tell. ok, ask me if u will and i'l tell u.
a slave neither owned own body or work. it is not that much diff now.
and it's getting worse.
hopefully u got it, that's best i could come up with.  thank u</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>evie,<br />
i cannot further clarify  the notion (some wd evaluate it as  fact)  that people who r mentally/physically capable love to work  and especially if they own shop/work or field/work.<br />
in capitalistic  system  people work only as hard as the boss  demands.<br />
and why, for humanities, do we have bosses and private ownership?<br />
we do because most of us  don&#8217;t possess work.  if we  possesed  work we&#8217;d command selves how hard and long to work.<br />
this right, right to work  w.o. supervision,  had been taken away from us.<br />
even  now  a person  has no right  to his body/life.  if plutocrats want war they can  conscript.<br />
which means ur body/pursuit for happiness/peace has been  arbitriraly abrogated.<br />
these notions or, rather, facts r fundmentals  of life.<br />
u say  &#8220;drugs  have always been w. us&#8221;. yes, but not as much as now.<br />
u also said, &#8221; U can take or leave drugs&#8221;<br />
that is true.<br />
however, i was talking ab manufacture, transportation, delivery  of  heroin and coke and  why US  having ab 10mn bodies  in  cia, fbi, city police, and  troops cannot stop drugs from coming in.<br />
my answer is (and chomsky&#8217;s)  ruling class likes it that way.<br />
may i tell  u why elementary schooling  is mandatory but not college or university? do i  need to tell. ok, ask me if u will and i&#8217;l tell u.<br />
a slave neither owned own body or work. it is not that much diff now.<br />
and it&#8217;s getting worse.<br />
hopefully u got it, that&#8217;s best i could come up with.  thank u</p>
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		<title>By: rosemarie jackowski</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23117</link>
		<dc:creator>rosemarie jackowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23117</guid>
		<description>Obama is a Democrat.
Nader is an Independent. 
End of discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama is a Democrat.<br />
Nader is an Independent.<br />
End of discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: evie</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23115</link>
		<dc:creator>evie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23115</guid>
		<description>boz
I'm not certain if it's a language barrier or what but I'm not sure I understand what you want to get across.

You say "please, let’s not blame" yet state lives are ruined by drugs b/c the ruling class makes serfs out of people. 

Drugs have always been around - we don't have to use them.
Wars have always been waged - we don't have to fund/fight them.

People are obedient b/c they don't want the responsibility for their own lives or the lives of their children.

People are serfs b/c they choose to take the path of least resistance.

Karma.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>boz<br />
I&#8217;m not certain if it&#8217;s a language barrier or what but I&#8217;m not sure I understand what you want to get across.</p>
<p>You say &#8220;please, let’s not blame&#8221; yet state lives are ruined by drugs b/c the ruling class makes serfs out of people. </p>
<p>Drugs have always been around - we don&#8217;t have to use them.<br />
Wars have always been waged - we don&#8217;t have to fund/fight them.</p>
<p>People are obedient b/c they don&#8217;t want the responsibility for their own lives or the lives of their children.</p>
<p>People are serfs b/c they choose to take the path of least resistance.</p>
<p>Karma.</p>
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		<title>By: bozhidar balkas</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23114</link>
		<dc:creator>bozhidar balkas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23114</guid>
		<description>evie e,
thrughout  history  people loved to  work. i deduce, people love to work  now.
the question is, who now metes out  work?  and when u work, how much for self  and how much for another?   
cent's  ago,  all  people,  even children,  worked. and one worked the same field; in same workshop all one's life.  there was few layoffs because work was not owned  by one living in vienna and plied by one living/working on the steppes.
true, cent's ago there was landowners and serfs. that was bad. but now it's  worse as far as people being serfs. 
chldren didn't go to school and ruling class  opposed it until they saw in  'education'  an  oportunity to render them blind/obedient.
we know  drugs  get into canada and US.  now, how is it that we can go to moon, mars, afgha'n, iraq, palestine and yet cannot find  how drugs get here; who refines poppies, transports, sells them;
sells it on street and delivers to one's  house?
now, suppose one says, No, we just can't  do much ab it; drugwars will continue.
but what is wrong  in  bringing  soldiers  back home and give them the job to  inspect all planes, ships, cargo vessels, tourists?
so we try that and drug use remains  the same or even increases? so, what have we lost? nothing!  we wd have saved iraqi and amerian lives abroad and at home.
in US, canada lives r screwed  by drugs. but only after  the ruilng class makes serfs out of them. kids lose joy, pride, sense of belonging; in short lose  the best things in life.
please, let's not blame but  look at all causative factors  that makes one  a ruler, a rich  person, a poor one, a faiure.
i  aver that we know  numerous causative factors in a child's or adult's   'failure'.
but the causative factors  r  not  studied. there is also causative factors for all warfare just  like for all fires.
both phenomana r  nat. events; thus have causes. find/ remove the causes and u wd, i say, have no wars  nor failures.
now, i'm not talking ab people who r brain-injured, suicidal, psychotic. these cannot look after  selves. most of these cannot work
thank u.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>evie e,<br />
thrughout  history  people loved to  work. i deduce, people love to work  now.<br />
the question is, who now metes out  work?  and when u work, how much for self  and how much for another?<br />
cent&#8217;s  ago,  all  people,  even children,  worked. and one worked the same field; in same workshop all one&#8217;s life.  there was few layoffs because work was not owned  by one living in vienna and plied by one living/working on the steppes.<br />
true, cent&#8217;s ago there was landowners and serfs. that was bad. but now it&#8217;s  worse as far as people being serfs.<br />
chldren didn&#8217;t go to school and ruling class  opposed it until they saw in  &#8216;education&#8217;  an  oportunity to render them blind/obedient.<br />
we know  drugs  get into canada and US.  now, how is it that we can go to moon, mars, afgha&#8217;n, iraq, palestine and yet cannot find  how drugs get here; who refines poppies, transports, sells them;<br />
sells it on street and delivers to one&#8217;s  house?<br />
now, suppose one says, No, we just can&#8217;t  do much ab it; drugwars will continue.<br />
but what is wrong  in  bringing  soldiers  back home and give them the job to  inspect all planes, ships, cargo vessels, tourists?<br />
so we try that and drug use remains  the same or even increases? so, what have we lost? nothing!  we wd have saved iraqi and amerian lives abroad and at home.<br />
in US, canada lives r screwed  by drugs. but only after  the ruilng class makes serfs out of them. kids lose joy, pride, sense of belonging; in short lose  the best things in life.<br />
please, let&#8217;s not blame but  look at all causative factors  that makes one  a ruler, a rich  person, a poor one, a faiure.<br />
i  aver that we know  numerous causative factors in a child&#8217;s or adult&#8217;s   &#8216;failure&#8217;.<br />
but the causative factors  r  not  studied. there is also causative factors for all warfare just  like for all fires.<br />
both phenomana r  nat. events; thus have causes. find/ remove the causes and u wd, i say, have no wars  nor failures.<br />
now, i&#8217;m not talking ab people who r brain-injured, suicidal, psychotic. these cannot look after  selves. most of these cannot work<br />
thank u.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Shields</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23113</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Shields</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23113</guid>
		<description>Frankly, from a pure tactical perspective (Obama is as worthless as the political system itself), I agree that the Dems have failed time and again to get into the White House because they offer no clear distinction between themselves and the other war party (the old why vote for lite when you can have the real thing calculation). It's pure irony that the Dems do everything possible to accomplish  what they fear most - losing.

There is a place in the cosmos for boldness and  "what the f*ck" attitude that's winning as hell. But the Dems are too smart for that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frankly, from a pure tactical perspective (Obama is as worthless as the political system itself), I agree that the Dems have failed time and again to get into the White House because they offer no clear distinction between themselves and the other war party (the old why vote for lite when you can have the real thing calculation). It&#8217;s pure irony that the Dems do everything possible to accomplish  what they fear most - losing.</p>
<p>There is a place in the cosmos for boldness and  &#8220;what the f*ck&#8221; attitude that&#8217;s winning as hell. But the Dems are too smart for that.</p>
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		<title>By: john v. walsh</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/06/nader-calls-on-obama-to-challenge-the-white-establishment/#comment-23103</link>
		<dc:creator>john v. walsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/?p=2253#comment-23103</guid>
		<description>Zeese's article is a good piece - but one must ask why we should want a Democrat to win.
I like Evie's comments.  
First, "Apparently many on the “left” would be shocked and awed at the number of black, brown, red, and yellow folks with wealth and power dining on the sacred establishment cow."  Absolutely.  We have an African American governor here in MA, a buddy of Obama's, and he has made absolutely no difference for poor people or Black people.  
Second, "Folks need to stop recycling the race card, flower power slogans, and campus pothead socialist rhetoric from the last century. It did not do much then and does even less now."  Right on.  The Green Party and the rest drowned in that detritus.  
BUT at least Nader is doing something and trying to build something.  It may not be perfect - but it is the only game in town.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zeese&#8217;s article is a good piece - but one must ask why we should want a Democrat to win.<br />
I like Evie&#8217;s comments.<br />
First, &#8220;Apparently many on the “left” would be shocked and awed at the number of black, brown, red, and yellow folks with wealth and power dining on the sacred establishment cow.&#8221;  Absolutely.  We have an African American governor here in MA, a buddy of Obama&#8217;s, and he has made absolutely no difference for poor people or Black people.<br />
Second, &#8220;Folks need to stop recycling the race card, flower power slogans, and campus pothead socialist rhetoric from the last century. It did not do much then and does even less now.&#8221;  Right on.  The Green Party and the rest drowned in that detritus.<br />
BUT at least Nader is doing something and trying to build something.  It may not be perfect - but it is the only game in town.</p>
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