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	<title>Comments on: The Audacity of Depression</title>
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	<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/</link>
	<description>a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 23:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: anthony innes</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17895</link>
		<dc:creator>anthony innes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17895</guid>
		<description>Joe always like your take.The end of the free range mammal is well along.The human race is to insectisation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe always like your take.The end of the free range mammal is well along.The human race is to insectisation.</p>
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		<title>By: Leroy</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17593</link>
		<dc:creator>Leroy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 01:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17593</guid>
		<description>It's funny to complain when you start losing after having had everything. This phenomenon probably comes to those who once found meaning within the toxic rise of American splendor. However, meaning has always been created by the individual, not the state. So all is not lost: we need only re-create ourselves. (In other words, we must find some way to take meaningful action - not that this action must be directed toward any particular purpose, but so that we may live peacefully)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s funny to complain when you start losing after having had everything. This phenomenon probably comes to those who once found meaning within the toxic rise of American splendor. However, meaning has always been created by the individual, not the state. So all is not lost: we need only re-create ourselves. (In other words, we must find some way to take meaningful action - not that this action must be directed toward any particular purpose, but so that we may live peacefully)</p>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17550</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 17:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17550</guid>
		<description>Yes, but as William Muny so roughly yet solemnly averred, whether saint or sinner, king or pauper; "we all; got it coming kid."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but as William Muny so roughly yet solemnly averred, whether saint or sinner, king or pauper; &#8220;we all; got it coming kid.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Corseri</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17549</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Corseri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:48:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17549</guid>
		<description>If Bageant were living in Japan, he'd be declared a "National Treasure."

He is one of those "deathless souls" E.M. Forster described: "sensitive, considerate and plucky."  It's that play of forces--yes, senstivity and consideration are forces--that makes his writing irresitable.

There's invariably a sad wisdom in his work, so this modern classic on the "audacity of depression" is in tune with much that I've read by him (including other modern classics--sufficient to make other writers St. Paddy's beer-green with envy).  Sensitivity, consideration and pluckiness would make for a good drinking or smoking companion, but Bageant also offers the sine qua non of important writers/artists: an ability to place his thumb squarely on the Zeitgeist's wrist and take its pulse.  And then he looks us in the eye and tells us things are grim.  As in Grim-Reaper grim.  As in never-getting-better-in-your-lifetime grim.  As in, forget the false hopes, the "Change" mantra.  We're living in a technological matrix-nightmare that has produced two world wars, and now an endless "War on Terror."  Slavery isn't dead in the world, it has just taken a different form.  Most of us are numb and dumb.  

There isn't hope--but there is endurance.  Periwinkles grow above the graves of African slaves.  There is the courage to endure and struggle for those Forsterian virtues.  

Let's fess up to the depression, but not bury ourselves in it.  That's Bageant's message.  In a time of collapse and darkness, there's still Galileo and Copernicus.  Euripides rejects Socratic  hemlock, escapes cascading-downward Athens, and lives to write again.  What to do as the Great Collapse begins (now) and during it?  Communes in the hills?  Expatriate like Berman, Bageant and many aware and independent spirits before them?

As a side-light: I lived in Japan for 5 years and my wife is Japanese.  I can personally attest to the absurditites of that modern, hyper, materialist, technological society.  I can also attest to some perdurable qualities that have survived the atomic holocausts and the onslaught of Western culture since the Meiji era and, especially, since World War II.  Today, the Japanese struggle to keep their ancient culture alive.  It is shredded, but elements of it persist.  They struggle to learn and re-learn, even as we struggle to capture grains of truth from our long history.  

As we sensitive, plucky global people struggle with the hydra-headed complexities of modern life, as we try to think, feel and intuit our way through the mazes, we hold fast to the yarn of the brave ones who have preceded us, and to yarn-makers like Bageant who keep lighting matches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Bageant were living in Japan, he&#8217;d be declared a &#8220;National Treasure.&#8221;</p>
<p>He is one of those &#8220;deathless souls&#8221; E.M. Forster described: &#8220;sensitive, considerate and plucky.&#8221;  It&#8217;s that play of forces&#8211;yes, senstivity and consideration are forces&#8211;that makes his writing irresitable.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s invariably a sad wisdom in his work, so this modern classic on the &#8220;audacity of depression&#8221; is in tune with much that I&#8217;ve read by him (including other modern classics&#8211;sufficient to make other writers St. Paddy&#8217;s beer-green with envy).  Sensitivity, consideration and pluckiness would make for a good drinking or smoking companion, but Bageant also offers the sine qua non of important writers/artists: an ability to place his thumb squarely on the Zeitgeist&#8217;s wrist and take its pulse.  And then he looks us in the eye and tells us things are grim.  As in Grim-Reaper grim.  As in never-getting-better-in-your-lifetime grim.  As in, forget the false hopes, the &#8220;Change&#8221; mantra.  We&#8217;re living in a technological matrix-nightmare that has produced two world wars, and now an endless &#8220;War on Terror.&#8221;  Slavery isn&#8217;t dead in the world, it has just taken a different form.  Most of us are numb and dumb.  </p>
<p>There isn&#8217;t hope&#8211;but there is endurance.  Periwinkles grow above the graves of African slaves.  There is the courage to endure and struggle for those Forsterian virtues.  </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s fess up to the depression, but not bury ourselves in it.  That&#8217;s Bageant&#8217;s message.  In a time of collapse and darkness, there&#8217;s still Galileo and Copernicus.  Euripides rejects Socratic  hemlock, escapes cascading-downward Athens, and lives to write again.  What to do as the Great Collapse begins (now) and during it?  Communes in the hills?  Expatriate like Berman, Bageant and many aware and independent spirits before them?</p>
<p>As a side-light: I lived in Japan for 5 years and my wife is Japanese.  I can personally attest to the absurditites of that modern, hyper, materialist, technological society.  I can also attest to some perdurable qualities that have survived the atomic holocausts and the onslaught of Western culture since the Meiji era and, especially, since World War II.  Today, the Japanese struggle to keep their ancient culture alive.  It is shredded, but elements of it persist.  They struggle to learn and re-learn, even as we struggle to capture grains of truth from our long history.  </p>
<p>As we sensitive, plucky global people struggle with the hydra-headed complexities of modern life, as we try to think, feel and intuit our way through the mazes, we hold fast to the yarn of the brave ones who have preceded us, and to yarn-makers like Bageant who keep lighting matches.</p>
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		<title>By: stonefruit</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17498</link>
		<dc:creator>stonefruit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17498</guid>
		<description>Funnny, I just blogged on rage fatigue.

http://stonefruit.blogspot.com/2008/04/trouble.html

I'm starting to see more and more of these 100th monkey-type moments lately.  It's about the only thing that gives me a shred of hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funnny, I just blogged on rage fatigue.</p>
<p><a href="http://stonefruit.blogspot.com/2008/04/trouble.html" rel="nofollow">http://stonefruit.blogspot.com/2008/04/trouble.html</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;m starting to see more and more of these 100th monkey-type moments lately.  It&#8217;s about the only thing that gives me a shred of hope.</p>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17493</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 22:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17493</guid>
		<description>Joe, because Fred told me, and everyone, about that roof, that red wine and those cigars. Told us wonderfully. 
I knew that would catch your eye, just as I knew you had done that, or, I  should say, I assumed you had.. 
You two men are two of the finest examples of Americana extant that I know of.
Two burrs on a mules tail, etc...
Good luck!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, because Fred told me, and everyone, about that roof, that red wine and those cigars. Told us wonderfully.<br />
I knew that would catch your eye, just as I knew you had done that, or, I  should say, I assumed you had..<br />
You two men are two of the finest examples of Americana extant that I know of.<br />
Two burrs on a mules tail, etc&#8230;<br />
Good luck!</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17488</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 19:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17488</guid>
		<description>Consequences of ignoring this admonishment would be severe. The Earth is nearing climate “tipping
points” with potential effects, many irreversible, including extermination of countless species, ice sheet
disintegration and sea-level rise, and intensified regional climate extremes. A world filled with desperate
climate refugees, we are warned by retired US generals and admirals, would be not only tragic, but
dangerous for everyone.
The latter part of my letter emphasizes the stick that the public interest has, one of the few
strategies that may affect Darth Vader. One of the dirty tricks of Darth Vader is an ad placed in
the lower right hand corner of the New York Times op-ed page. A recent one, “the fuels of the
future”, states, as a fact, backed by the authoritative International Energy Agency and the U.S.
Energy Information Agency, that renewable energies such as wind, solar power and biofuels,
will satisfy only 2 percent of global energy needs in 2030. One wonders how they can be so
definitive when, as one example, a fraction of Nevada deserts is sufficient to provide all U.S.
electrical power via existing solar thermal technology.  James Hansen
  
   I am old not ancient just old and that wine and cigarette in Mexico sounds good but would not work out well for me.  There is still time and there must be away.  How do you get a few million people to start in front of the Capital?  There must be away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Consequences of ignoring this admonishment would be severe. The Earth is nearing climate “tipping<br />
points” with potential effects, many irreversible, including extermination of countless species, ice sheet<br />
disintegration and sea-level rise, and intensified regional climate extremes. A world filled with desperate<br />
climate refugees, we are warned by retired US generals and admirals, would be not only tragic, but<br />
dangerous for everyone.<br />
The latter part of my letter emphasizes the stick that the public interest has, one of the few<br />
strategies that may affect Darth Vader. One of the dirty tricks of Darth Vader is an ad placed in<br />
the lower right hand corner of the New York Times op-ed page. A recent one, “the fuels of the<br />
future”, states, as a fact, backed by the authoritative International Energy Agency and the U.S.<br />
Energy Information Agency, that renewable energies such as wind, solar power and biofuels,<br />
will satisfy only 2 percent of global energy needs in 2030. One wonders how they can be so<br />
definitive when, as one example, a fraction of Nevada deserts is sufficient to provide all U.S.<br />
electrical power via existing solar thermal technology.  James Hansen</p>
<p>   I am old not ancient just old and that wine and cigarette in Mexico sounds good but would not work out well for me.  There is still time and there must be away.  How do you get a few million people to start in front of the Capital?  There must be away.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17486</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17486</guid>
		<description>Just watched the end of the big hearing on the hill.  The fed chairman and the state of the financial system.  Fascinating, the look's on some of these people's faces not the chairman the people setting in the back no expression.  Then the last question of the day, someone asked when will things get back to normal.  I heard the laughter of the God's but how many at that hearing did, I can't say.  There still is time damn it but so far not on this course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just watched the end of the big hearing on the hill.  The fed chairman and the state of the financial system.  Fascinating, the look&#8217;s on some of these people&#8217;s faces not the chairman the people setting in the back no expression.  Then the last question of the day, someone asked when will things get back to normal.  I heard the laughter of the God&#8217;s but how many at that hearing did, I can&#8217;t say.  There still is time damn it but so far not on this course.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Bageant</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17482</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Bageant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17482</guid>
		<description>I don't know who you are, but Fred and I have done that. And I plan to do it again soon. 

How did you know Fred's roof is the greatest sitting (and drinking) spot in Ajijic, Mexico?

joe bageant</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know who you are, but Fred and I have done that. And I plan to do it again soon. </p>
<p>How did you know Fred&#8217;s roof is the greatest sitting (and drinking) spot in Ajijic, Mexico?</p>
<p>joe bageant</p>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17477</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17477</guid>
		<description>I can easily see Joe and Fred Reed sitting in a bar or on Fred's roof down in Mexico, smoking a cigar and drinking that hearty red wine. Laughing and conjuring ways to break the bad news to the rest of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can easily see Joe and Fred Reed sitting in a bar or on Fred&#8217;s roof down in Mexico, smoking a cigar and drinking that hearty red wine. Laughing and conjuring ways to break the bad news to the rest of us.</p>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17476</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17476</guid>
		<description>Joe, if you run for President I'll vote for you.
What a wonderfully terrible article.
The best I've read in quite a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, if you run for President I&#8217;ll vote for you.<br />
What a wonderfully terrible article.<br />
The best I&#8217;ve read in quite a while.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17474</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17474</guid>
		<description>We all do need reasons not to go absolutely insane or start trying to assassinate our rulers, like the Russians did in the late 19th century, of course.  But, Joe, I didn't know even NASA had invented good enuf robots to replace the humans who sell, repair, and run the machines.  (And for those readers who are not writers, this is not to advocate assassination.)  To paraphrase Mr. Savio forty-six years ago: there comes a time when we must put our bodies in the cogs...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We all do need reasons not to go absolutely insane or start trying to assassinate our rulers, like the Russians did in the late 19th century, of course.  But, Joe, I didn&#8217;t know even NASA had invented good enuf robots to replace the humans who sell, repair, and run the machines.  (And for those readers who are not writers, this is not to advocate assassination.)  To paraphrase Mr. Savio forty-six years ago: there comes a time when we must put our bodies in the cogs&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mandt</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17472</link>
		<dc:creator>mandt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17472</guid>
		<description>Joe,
"If anybody solves that problem, it will be the Japanese. There seem to be no bigger suckers for technoculture---" There is a brilliant insight here regarding Japanese ethos and their leading edge in techo-homogenitity:

“Eventually the system will reach a point… where the social cue is ‘integration’–where the universal dependence of all moments on all other moments makes the talk of causality obsolete. It is idle to search for what might have been a cause within a monolithic society.” Theodor Adorno
For nearly two thousand years Japan created a society whose political organizations, culture, arts, and specially language perfected Adorno's 
concept----until the invasion of America by Admiral Perry in the mid nioneteenth century. Japan's trauma and assimilation of Western technology over the past one hundred and fifty years or so is in the greater sense of its history an adjustment and reformation of its previous, central identity: a highly refined, stratified and merciless totalerian society.


–</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,<br />
&#8220;If anybody solves that problem, it will be the Japanese. There seem to be no bigger suckers for technoculture&#8212;&#8221; There is a brilliant insight here regarding Japanese ethos and their leading edge in techo-homogenitity:</p>
<p>“Eventually the system will reach a point… where the social cue is ‘integration’–where the universal dependence of all moments on all other moments makes the talk of causality obsolete. It is idle to search for what might have been a cause within a monolithic society.” Theodor Adorno<br />
For nearly two thousand years Japan created a society whose political organizations, culture, arts, and specially language perfected Adorno&#8217;s<br />
concept&#8212;-until the invasion of America by Admiral Perry in the mid nioneteenth century. Japan&#8217;s trauma and assimilation of Western technology over the past one hundred and fifty years or so is in the greater sense of its history an adjustment and reformation of its previous, central identity: a highly refined, stratified and merciless totalerian society.</p>
<p>–</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17471</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17471</guid>
		<description>Joe that very good stuff, thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe that very good stuff, thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Lloyd Rowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17469</link>
		<dc:creator>Lloyd Rowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17469</guid>
		<description>Thanx for this, Joe.   You just sold another copy of  Deer Hunting With Jesus.   And many happy returns to DV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanx for this, Joe.   You just sold another copy of  Deer Hunting With Jesus.   And many happy returns to DV.</p>
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		<title>By: D. R. Munro</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17468</link>
		<dc:creator>D. R. Munro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17468</guid>
		<description>"those quiet lamp lighters making their way through the deepening dusk of American civilization."

I like this.  Keep it up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;those quiet lamp lighters making their way through the deepening dusk of American civilization.&#8221;</p>
<p>I like this.  Keep it up.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Hawkins</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17463</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Hawkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/the-audacity-of-depression/#comment-17463</guid>
		<description>http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20080331_DarthVader.pdf
  What about this style of writting or this:
http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20080401_DearPrimeMinisterRudd.pdf
May the force be with you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20080331_DarthVader.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20080331_DarthVader.pdf</a><br />
  What about this style of writting or this:<br />
<a href="http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20080401_DearPrimeMinisterRudd.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20080401_DearPrimeMinisterRudd.pdf</a><br />
May the force be with you</p>
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