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	<title>Comments on: Campaign Deconstruction and Movement Building</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/</link>
	<description>a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 04:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jerry D. Rose</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18256</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry D. Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18256</guid>
		<description>ERIC, you and others posting here and elsewhere continue to be accepting of Obama as the "best we can get."  You ignore the point I made in my last post, that Obama is not going to be "gettable" once his opponents' campaigns---especially the Republican one---begin to bear down on the ethical dubiousness (to put in mildly) of his Illinois political career.  If my few words don't convince you, look up one of the several investigative reports of Evelyn Pringle, for example: http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_none_080328_barck_obama___the_wi.htm

A word too on your "bottom to top" view of the way a progressive political force could be built.  I agree to an extent but certainly not to the extent of arguing that an all-out run for the presidency must await the creating of political power at more local levels.  The problem is: how is that local power---for example the election of Greens as members of Congress or county sheriffs---to be accomplished?  I would argue that a "successful"  run for the presidency (say one that captured 20% of the popular vote) could have an incredibly invigorating effect on the willingness of closet progressives to run as progressives in local elections.  Rather than a bottom to top vs. a top to bottom argument, I think we need action proceeding in both directions; and with McCain, Clinton and Obama all grievously out of touch with the mainstream of Americans' political feelings, what better time to launch such an electoral effort at the presidential level?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ERIC, you and others posting here and elsewhere continue to be accepting of Obama as the &#8220;best we can get.&#8221;  You ignore the point I made in my last post, that Obama is not going to be &#8220;gettable&#8221; once his opponents&#8217; campaigns&#8212;especially the Republican one&#8212;begin to bear down on the ethical dubiousness (to put in mildly) of his Illinois political career.  If my few words don&#8217;t convince you, look up one of the several investigative reports of Evelyn Pringle, for example: <a href="http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_none_080328_barck_obama___the_wi.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_none_080328_barck_obama___the_wi.htm</a></p>
<p>A word too on your &#8220;bottom to top&#8221; view of the way a progressive political force could be built.  I agree to an extent but certainly not to the extent of arguing that an all-out run for the presidency must await the creating of political power at more local levels.  The problem is: how is that local power&#8212;for example the election of Greens as members of Congress or county sheriffs&#8212;to be accomplished?  I would argue that a &#8220;successful&#8221;  run for the presidency (say one that captured 20% of the popular vote) could have an incredibly invigorating effect on the willingness of closet progressives to run as progressives in local elections.  Rather than a bottom to top vs. a top to bottom argument, I think we need action proceeding in both directions; and with McCain, Clinton and Obama all grievously out of touch with the mainstream of Americans&#8217; political feelings, what better time to launch such an electoral effort at the presidential level?</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Griffin</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18252</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18252</guid>
		<description>I agree: run for offices as progressives. BUT, it costs too much money; incumbency is too powerful; we have to do something important first: CHANGE our fourth estate, so we can be "viable" and all that crap they throw at us - I did run for city council - the two who made it to the final were backed by big money interests, and got all the media coverage &#38; support. Find candidates I can support, and I will volunteer - LOCALLY!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree: run for offices as progressives. BUT, it costs too much money; incumbency is too powerful; we have to do something important first: CHANGE our fourth estate, so we can be &#8220;viable&#8221; and all that crap they throw at us - I did run for city council - the two who made it to the final were backed by big money interests, and got all the media coverage &amp; support. Find candidates I can support, and I will volunteer - LOCALLY!</p>
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		<title>By: hp</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18247</link>
		<dc:creator>hp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18247</guid>
		<description>I don't think it's wise to refer to Bush in the past tense. He's not quite finished his torturing yet.
Even as he has a majority Democrat base and a compliant Republican minority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s wise to refer to Bush in the past tense. He&#8217;s not quite finished his torturing yet.<br />
Even as he has a majority Democrat base and a compliant Republican minority.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18239</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:43:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18239</guid>
		<description>I don't disagree on principle with anyone here who calls me out on my "Obama is the best realistic option available." But let's be honest: A President McKinney or President Nader would be helpless to do ANYTHING without Green/Progressive support in Congress, in state legislatures, among school boards....There is no support - today - for a Green/Progressive president. I wish there were! But shooting for the stars is no way to build a progressive movement. 

Shouldn't we instead be working to build an electoral base, where progressives sit on local boards, town councils, then maybe state legislatures, and then  congress? Imagine if 20% of the House were made up of Greens, or 20% of the Senate? That's when there'd be a chance for a effective progressive president. Without that there really isn't any. Even the imperial Bush had a majority Republican base and compliant Democratic minority that let him operate with impunity. You think a congress soaked in corporate dollars would let President Nader pass a single law?  

Meantime we have real issues, which need urgent attention. Seems to me that web-based action groups (Move On, Democrats.com and other moderate-to-left groups) are bringing a new kind of anti-corporate grass roots ideology to more people than we've had in a long, long time. Small steps, sure, but considering the utter absence of progressive political activity during the last 25 years, it's a very good start. At the very least, I don't think President Obama would stand in their way. 

Eric
www.changeany1thing.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t disagree on principle with anyone here who calls me out on my &#8220;Obama is the best realistic option available.&#8221; But let&#8217;s be honest: A President McKinney or President Nader would be helpless to do ANYTHING without Green/Progressive support in Congress, in state legislatures, among school boards&#8230;.There is no support - today - for a Green/Progressive president. I wish there were! But shooting for the stars is no way to build a progressive movement. </p>
<p>Shouldn&#8217;t we instead be working to build an electoral base, where progressives sit on local boards, town councils, then maybe state legislatures, and then  congress? Imagine if 20% of the House were made up of Greens, or 20% of the Senate? That&#8217;s when there&#8217;d be a chance for a effective progressive president. Without that there really isn&#8217;t any. Even the imperial Bush had a majority Republican base and compliant Democratic minority that let him operate with impunity. You think a congress soaked in corporate dollars would let President Nader pass a single law?  </p>
<p>Meantime we have real issues, which need urgent attention. Seems to me that web-based action groups (Move On, Democrats.com and other moderate-to-left groups) are bringing a new kind of anti-corporate grass roots ideology to more people than we&#8217;ve had in a long, long time. Small steps, sure, but considering the utter absence of progressive political activity during the last 25 years, it&#8217;s a very good start. At the very least, I don&#8217;t think President Obama would stand in their way. </p>
<p>Eric<br />
<a href="http://www.changeany1thing.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.changeany1thing.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom Yager</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18235</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Yager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18235</guid>
		<description>Obama makes good speeches, but the Greens have good policies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama makes good speeches, but the Greens have good policies.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Griffin</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18229</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18229</guid>
		<description>When I see Obama, I see a materialist. I see a money grubber. The way he talks, moves, dresses, thinks - he could win due to the economy; but i don't think he will run on the issues that could make him the president. Of course, the presidency is a dangerous thing for us...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I see Obama, I see a materialist. I see a money grubber. The way he talks, moves, dresses, thinks - he could win due to the economy; but i don&#8217;t think he will run on the issues that could make him the president. Of course, the presidency is a dangerous thing for us&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: HR</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18212</link>
		<dc:creator>HR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 00:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18212</guid>
		<description>Eric, no, Obama does not represent the most realistic option.  He is really no option at all, any more than Clinton or McCain are.  He is simply more of the same, with his own brand of sugar coating on it.

There are two much better options at the moment:  McKinney and Nader.  They actually are progressive and make no bones about it.  The only reason they are not considered realistic options is because progressives have sold themselves to the status quo, buying into the notion that neither is electable.  The only damned reason they're not electable is because progressives are too damned brainwashed to mark their ballot according to their conscience, afraid of "throwing their votes away" ... and the neoliberals, conservatives, and faux liberals who call themselves Democrats, laugh all the way to the bank.  And we are left with the lessor of two evils, ad infinitum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, no, Obama does not represent the most realistic option.  He is really no option at all, any more than Clinton or McCain are.  He is simply more of the same, with his own brand of sugar coating on it.</p>
<p>There are two much better options at the moment:  McKinney and Nader.  They actually are progressive and make no bones about it.  The only reason they are not considered realistic options is because progressives have sold themselves to the status quo, buying into the notion that neither is electable.  The only damned reason they&#8217;re not electable is because progressives are too damned brainwashed to mark their ballot according to their conscience, afraid of &#8220;throwing their votes away&#8221; &#8230; and the neoliberals, conservatives, and faux liberals who call themselves Democrats, laugh all the way to the bank.  And we are left with the lessor of two evils, ad infinitum.</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry D. Rose</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18192</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry D. Rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18192</guid>
		<description>ERIC  "In the meantime, doesn’t Obama represent the best realistic option available? "   

Wrong, question, Eric, should be: does Obama represent ANY "available" option?  Neither he nor Hillary Clinton is an option that the American voters are going to take.  Both are incredibly vulnerable to the most toxic ingredient in U.S. politics: the tendency to reject outright any candidate or official whom is deemed to be "corrupt" or deceitful.  Clinton will fall on the sword of her lies about her record on health care, her "sniper fire" non-experience, etc. etc.  Obama will fall at the instant a grand jury returns an indictment of him (even as an unindicated conspirator) for his part in corrupt fleecing of public housing programs in Chicago. Is McCain any "better?"  Objectively, probably not, but he has somehow acquired the manner of a "straight shooter" who tells it "like it is" even though what "is is" changes somewhat over time.  So McCain is going to win this "purity contest" in an electorate of morally-corrupted voters (me and thee)  and then there will be hand-wringing aplenty among progressives whose darling, Obama, has been Spitzer-ized.  Better I say for progressives to seek out a presidential candidate not subject to this vulnerability (can you say Cynthia McKinney?) and even if he/she loses, the campaign would be the prelude to the building of the "progressive movement" that the author (and I) advocate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ERIC  &#8220;In the meantime, doesn’t Obama represent the best realistic option available? &#8221;   </p>
<p>Wrong, question, Eric, should be: does Obama represent ANY &#8220;available&#8221; option?  Neither he nor Hillary Clinton is an option that the American voters are going to take.  Both are incredibly vulnerable to the most toxic ingredient in U.S. politics: the tendency to reject outright any candidate or official whom is deemed to be &#8220;corrupt&#8221; or deceitful.  Clinton will fall on the sword of her lies about her record on health care, her &#8220;sniper fire&#8221; non-experience, etc. etc.  Obama will fall at the instant a grand jury returns an indictment of him (even as an unindicated conspirator) for his part in corrupt fleecing of public housing programs in Chicago. Is McCain any &#8220;better?&#8221;  Objectively, probably not, but he has somehow acquired the manner of a &#8220;straight shooter&#8221; who tells it &#8220;like it is&#8221; even though what &#8220;is is&#8221; changes somewhat over time.  So McCain is going to win this &#8220;purity contest&#8221; in an electorate of morally-corrupted voters (me and thee)  and then there will be hand-wringing aplenty among progressives whose darling, Obama, has been Spitzer-ized.  Better I say for progressives to seek out a presidential candidate not subject to this vulnerability (can you say Cynthia McKinney?) and even if he/she loses, the campaign would be the prelude to the building of the &#8220;progressive movement&#8221; that the author (and I) advocate.</p>
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		<title>By: cemmcs</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18184</link>
		<dc:creator>cemmcs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18184</guid>
		<description>"Doesn’t it denote a rather immature stance for a people to believe that they can only be rescued by a powerful and compelling figure backed by corporate money?"

Why, yes, it does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Doesn’t it denote a rather immature stance for a people to believe that they can only be rescued by a powerful and compelling figure backed by corporate money?&#8221;</p>
<p>Why, yes, it does.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18171</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18171</guid>
		<description>There’s no doubt that progressives are tugged by Obama's eloquence (this Green Party supporter will admit it about himself); part of this comes from the fact that he is the first presidential candidate I know who talks about things like the dangers from “introducing children to adult information” with a "media culture that saturates our airwaves with a steady stream of  materialism.”  Or specifically criticizes trickle-down economics.  Or who says that "we have individual responsibility, but we also have collective responsibility to each other."

These aren't your typical liberal talking points, and it's refreshing to hear. Of course, they're just words, and the guy's raising like $30 million per MONTH and I doubt it's all coming as $20 donations over the Web. 

But what's the alternative? There is no mass progressive movement and won't be by November. We've seen the difference between Neoliberalism and Neoconservatism. The first is disheartening. The other, devastating. 

Yes, we need sizable, transformative changes in our politics and social arrangements and no corporate-Democrat will bring them. My old Marxist friends used to admit that it would probably take wild social disorder - like a nuclear war - to bring about the revolution they dreamed about. I don't think we need such drastic disasters (yikes!), but maybe a bankrupt economy, a $3 trillion out-of-control war, growing WW hatred towards Americans, outright criminality in the white house, a crumbling national infrastructure, planes ready to drop from the sky, and who knows what else lurking in 2009 might just be enough to spur an activist awakening beyond the nascent web-based progressive community we already have. 

In the meantime, doesn’t Obama represent the best realistic option available? 

Eric
www.changeany1thing.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There’s no doubt that progressives are tugged by Obama&#8217;s eloquence (this Green Party supporter will admit it about himself); part of this comes from the fact that he is the first presidential candidate I know who talks about things like the dangers from “introducing children to adult information” with a &#8220;media culture that saturates our airwaves with a steady stream of  materialism.”  Or specifically criticizes trickle-down economics.  Or who says that &#8220;we have individual responsibility, but we also have collective responsibility to each other.&#8221;</p>
<p>These aren&#8217;t your typical liberal talking points, and it&#8217;s refreshing to hear. Of course, they&#8217;re just words, and the guy&#8217;s raising like $30 million per MONTH and I doubt it&#8217;s all coming as $20 donations over the Web. </p>
<p>But what&#8217;s the alternative? There is no mass progressive movement and won&#8217;t be by November. We&#8217;ve seen the difference between Neoliberalism and Neoconservatism. The first is disheartening. The other, devastating. </p>
<p>Yes, we need sizable, transformative changes in our politics and social arrangements and no corporate-Democrat will bring them. My old Marxist friends used to admit that it would probably take wild social disorder - like a nuclear war - to bring about the revolution they dreamed about. I don&#8217;t think we need such drastic disasters (yikes!), but maybe a bankrupt economy, a $3 trillion out-of-control war, growing WW hatred towards Americans, outright criminality in the white house, a crumbling national infrastructure, planes ready to drop from the sky, and who knows what else lurking in 2009 might just be enough to spur an activist awakening beyond the nascent web-based progressive community we already have. </p>
<p>In the meantime, doesn’t Obama represent the best realistic option available? </p>
<p>Eric<br />
<a href="http://www.changeany1thing.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.changeany1thing.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Rich Griffin</title>
		<link>http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18156</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/04/campaign-deconstruction-and-movement-building/#comment-18156</guid>
		<description>I have said this so many times, and will continue until I'm totally blue in the face! We have got to face facts and ABOLISH THE US PRESIDENCY! The founding fathers even recognized the need would come to tear down our system and replace it with something better (and that would be replaced in time, too) - this is why I advocate for a parliamentary system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have said this so many times, and will continue until I&#8217;m totally blue in the face! We have got to face facts and ABOLISH THE US PRESIDENCY! The founding fathers even recognized the need would come to tear down our system and replace it with something better (and that would be replaced in time, too) - this is why I advocate for a parliamentary system.</p>
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