Some people just like to create turmoil with others and draw some strange enjoyment from it.

I suppose it does take a period of, say, de-tox to rid yourself of all the bullshit that corporate media feeds you. Perhaps Michael Kenny just hasn’t finished his yet.

The thing I like about “leftie” and alternative news sites, is that even if I’m wrong, or if you’re wrong, or if Michael Kenny is wrong - we’re thinking about things critcally, analyzing information and coming to our own conclusions, not letting talking heads on television spin us how they want to.

That is what is important, thinking.

Save this piece to “Favorites” (as with other worthy pieces at D.V. and cousin sites) and next time one of the benighted spouts falsehoods and half-truths, pass the information on.

So it is written in the Book of Proverbs: “Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser; teach a just man, and he will increase in learning … but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.”

nowdays if i want to know whats actually happening behind the headlines , i come to “lefties” sites like dv.
you guys are the conscience of usa.
as for michael kenny, sigh, why doesnt he just stick with faux news or war street journals i wonder ?

Serbs and Jews are always victims. Yes, Serbs were ones who tried to save Yugoslavia by killing, and expelling everybody else in a same way Israel is saving Palestine.

“When everybody else in the neighborhood hates you, or hates something you do, it’s a moment for a little reflection and introspection, isn’t it? Unless, of course, you’re just an asshole. Then why bother?”

Yes, MOST of Serbs and Jews do not need to bother, we know what they are.

Hard to argue that. It’s not what we know it’s whether or not we’ll act on what we know.

That is why I find it just about impossible to look at the USA and it’s national presidential races as change agents. It’s not just that the 2 parties are deadends, but that the sheer size of this country makes such needed fundamental change impossible.

Human scaled change is possible. Cuba dealt with it and arguments can likewise be made that they would have stuck with the old Soviet style of feeding its people - just as you have pointed out. But that’s not what happened. Because there were already the seeds of a different way, that narrative took over. In a word, begin where your at.

I’m use to nay-sayers and phony preachers. All turn into followers once direction has been set. You find both at the local level, but it should not stop us from organizing the champions and moving forward.

Or we can just stew. We have choices…

Cheers
Max

And as for the future? What wishful thinking — that the dissolution of nation-states will produce more eco-friendly, or in-any-way-friendly, groupings of human beings! A dream which I attribute in about equal parts to hopelessness among lefties and radical environmentalism.

The only nation-states bound to UN resolutions are those with significant less political power than the UN. That is not to say, like you said, that it is designed to allow major powers to circumvent its resolutions - but it doesn’t have the political pull to force adherence.

I find it impossible to believe that the developed world will take it upon itself to de-industrialize, even though it is imperative that it happens to a great extent.

My thinking, looking at the track record of humanity, we will start to tear down these monuments to greed and slavery some twenty years or so after it’s already too late.

And water, oh man - if the population increases keep steady at this rate for too much longer, water will be more valuable than gold. A luxury only the rich can afford.

Yes and this is what has made the U.N. totally worthless. The resolutions, particularly the General Assembly resolutions become little more than “non-binding” pronouncements.

Any complaining about the U.N.’s role in the world by the neo-cons and libertarians is really a push to destroy what little effect a global body might have in holding up some moral high ground. It is not just that the U.N. has been designed to keep the Security Council members outside of the sphere of international law (as well as their client nations), but it actually defeats the purpose of what “good” it would like to think that it is making in the world. Whether that be conflict resolution or hunger and disease. As powers have their way they undermine all of those efforts.

I don’t think the answer is the endless replacement one superpowers for another. The answer it seems is to realize the unsustainability of domination/superpower model from anyone nation-state or coalition of states. We know (whether we’re capable of acting on this knowledge is another thing) that we’ll need to de-industrialize much of the developed world and curtail the the industrialization that is happening in developing nations if we are to avoid the ultimate demise of human life on the planet. Supposing we do, than the question is will a de-industrialized (certainly vastly reduced dependency on industrial consumption of energy) world undermine the tendency for domination? Will that lead to a justice forced upon us by nature rather than by some attempt (cynical at worst, and futile at best) at creating justice from institutions (ala U.N.)? I think it’s possible.

If we look at food and agriculture we can learn a lot about where we’re headed and it’s happening at a fairly rapid pace. Add to that issues of water supply and you have a better sense of human trajectory than who’s going to win an election or where the next conflict or war will occur.

Let us not forget that those who bring others to “justice” are the victors. Hence the United States was granted amnesty in regards to all war crimes carried out by the Allies (fire bombing of Dresden, fire bombing of Tokyo, near complete annihilation of Munich, detonation of two strategic nuclear bombs - all come to mind off the top of my head) in World War II because we were “crushing Nazi scum!”

Until the United States succumbs to another military power, there will never be justice for the crimes committed in the name of Empire.

mk, lol
if not for the “lefties” who are standing up to us imperialism, we the world communities would have written off you yanks by now.

us complicity in the breaking up of yugo
http://nato-media-lies-exposed.blogspot.com/2006/01/srebrenica-atrocity-video-natasa.html

us crimes against humanity in ex yugo,
http://www.snd-us.com/Liberty/sj_1758.htm

if there’s any justice left in this world, this alone should bring the us /uk to face the music at the world court

its people like u and john wilkinson, shilling for the empire , who are the embarrassment of the usa.

Well, no, the serbs did not.
Ever hear of the Paradox? It was reported in the Kangaroo trial of Milosevic…you may not have heard of it as the media didnt report on it:

‘ Serbia proper, the alleged heartland of this “joint criminal enterprise,” was itself subject to no “ethnic cleansing” whatsoever throughout the wars, but witnessed a net inflow of refugees from other former republics. (For data on refugee flows in the former Yugoslavia, see section 9.) This dramatic fact was brought out by Milosevic in his trial, during his examination of defense witness Mihailo Markovic, a noted professor of philosophy and one of the founders of Praxis. Acknowledging the “paradox in view of all these charges” concerning “Greater Serbia” and “ethnic cleansing,” Markovic said that “Serbia still has today the same national structure that it had in the 1970s,” and that although “Serbs were expulsed from practically all the other republics, Serbia did not change.” “Why would Serbs be expelling Croatians from Croatia if they’re not expelling them from Serbia?” Markovic asked the court. “Why would Serbs be expelling Albanians from Kosovo if they’re not expelling them from Belgrade and other parts of Serbia?” Shortly thereafter, Milosevic directed much the same question back toward Markovic:

Milosevic: [I]f you have in mind that the greatest part of that Greater Serbia would be precisely the Republic of Serbia, which did not see any expulsions at all throughout the crisis, do you find it logical that Serbia should initiate expulsions from territories outside of Serbia?
Markovic: Well, I already told you it seems illogical to me.32
Obviously, these are important questions, whose answers cast doubts on a fundamental tenet of the standard narrative. If the Belgrade Serbs, as the alleged originators of the “joint criminal enterprise” to create a “Greater Serbia,” did not implement their conspiracy where they held unquestioned power, inside Serbia proper, then what is the likelihood that the prosecution’s theory for the wars has any merit? Lead prosecutor Geoffrey Nice had no solution for this “paradox.” And Marlise Simons, Mark Danner, Ed Vulliamy, David Rieff, and others have not dealt with it by any method other than yet more misleading rhetoric and strategic silence. This exchange was unreported in any Western media institution.

http://www.monthlyreview.org/1007herman-peterson1.php

So, no ethnic cleansing by the Serbs! No war crimes committed by milosevic. While real ethnic cleansing was taknig place by the croats slovenes and you guess it, the kosovo albanians.

I suggest you and everyone read the Herman/Peterson article in full.

As for US innocence, back in 1991, after the fall of the soviets, we find:

‘Diana Johnstone recounts a January 1991 meeting in Belgrade between the U.S. ambassador and Borisav Jovic, a Serb then serving on Yugoslavia’s collective State Presidency. “[T]he United States would not accept any use of force to disarm the paramilitaries,” Jovic was told. “Only ‘peaceful’ means were acceptable to Washington. The Yugoslav army was prohibited by the United States from using force to preserve the Federation, which meant that it could not prevent the Federation from being dismembered by force”12—a remarkable injunction against a sovereign state. Similar warnings were communicated by the EC as well. We might try to imagine what the United States would look like today, were the questions it faced in 1860 about its federal structure and the rights of states handled in as prejudicial a manner by much stronger foreign powers’

Us was prepared to see Yugoslavia breakup, with the soviets gone, its strategic use was gone, but it was still a socialist multi-ethnic country, and that was not what the US or NATO now wanted. The era of neoliberal privatisation was forced on the remains of Yugoslavia by the US/ NATO.

Take a listen:
http://antiwar.com/radio/2008/02/19/philip-cunliffe/

You say the US was not complicit in the 78 day bombardment of the Balkins in 1999? That’s the issue. What the US did, not what precipitated it. We know the Balkins did not attack the US. Right? It was the NATO/US airforce that did the bombing.

That afterall is the point, and it is irrefutable. And it is from this point that we begin the analysis of what sets us up for this kind of interventionism and the thousands of civilian deaths that follow.

The issue is interventionism and how what follows is almost always hegemonic in nature by those forces who step in with military might. Does that mean there aren’t other players. Not at all. Clarify those, present your case, but to state that the US was, because it serves some leftist agenda, not complicit seems a distortion of the obvious.

Let me just address one thing — that the US supposedly was complicit in the breakup of Yugoslavia, that it was their work. So, this is how it works: let’s look for bad things happening anywhere in the world. Then, let’s publish articles blaming the US for that. US is omnipotent, it is this voodoo magician who is always there everywhere doing the impossible deeds on behalf of the forces of Darkness. Everything it touches goes perfectly per the hidden agenda of the Death Star. You see, that way, you get brownie points on the left, you energize the ignorant base, and you enhance your own prestige and monetary situation (it’s all about the money, on the left and on the right, absolutely no diff).

So, it wasn’t the corrupt Balkan elites who started those wars, who gained immense and fabulous wealth in those wars (as I pointed out), who incited their countrymen to unspeakable hate and unspeakable deeds — no, it was the US. For those of us ignorant and inferior foreigners (savages really), being responsible for our actions and pointing out what our own corrupt and immoral elites have done, that’s not for us, the US left elite moves in and shows us it’s all the US’s fault anyway. So,THEY can get the attention and the MONEY. Without a shred of evidence in this case. (Yes, plenty of evidence on Chile, Iran, Iraq, I agree with that).

It is IMMORAL to let the Serbian (and other Balkan) elites get away with murder and to cloud the issues with your irresponsible fantasies!!!!!!