So it comes down to this, with such monumental federal debt, the last thing people want (liberals included) is another spendthrift president coupled with a Dem. majority in Congress to aid in more deficit spending. THAT is the slippery slope which will end America as we know it.

Define “conspiracy theorist”? Define “right wing” and “left wing”. Fighting with “Horewitz” alone does not mean that much if you are yourself fighting with any voice of reason with the same tactics of Horowirz.

The logical conclusion that 9/11 was an inside job and probably with support of several fractions of the governmetn in this country and Israel is “conspiracy theory” and condemned to be rejected without any reasoning? The idea that Pro-Isreal Zionist are pushing this country into war after war (i.e. Iraq and now Iran) is conspiracy theory and doomed to be rejected and rediculed?

Keep your history for your resume and employment, what counts is your position right now and here, not how long you have trashed someone who admittedly is an icon of absurdity.

Keep up the good work, the more you talk and show yourself enlightens the others.

But the point is moot. Ron Paul got the fringe votes from the “conspiracy theory” fringe fanatics only. As one pundit put it “The kids like him!”. You got 4 years until the next election. Grow up.

And Harmoon? …

“Being “anti” something wihtout providing a positive alternative in your discussion is a de facto support of status quo”.

Really? Care to explain the logic behind that one? It sounds good. But it makes about as much sense as 90% of the quips Rumsfeld so dearly loved to ply the press-corps with when he had a full head of steam.

You are confusing oversimplification which is “Us vs. them” with right wing mindedness. Interestingly you presume since I am opposing ditribe against Ron Paul, I should be a “right Winger” which is your little version of Us vs. them:).

The self rightousness and arrogance could be anyones attitude including the self proclaimed left. The discussion which does not bother to prove a point and just smears in this particular case is the job of Pro-Zionist. If you dont see yourself that way you might have confusion about your role and identity, need to work on it.

Check this one for a pro-Zionist bias…LOL.
http://harperharpoon.blogspot.com/

But a question that anyone with a triple digit IQ not suffering RWA personality disorder* would surely ask themselves is, “This is very unusual….so what’s going on here? Conservative right-wingers simply do not become progressive intellectuals in the short time it takes to re-tool for the next election cycle. And yet, there he is. And not only is he there, but he’s speaking to grassroots cybernauts…the very people that GOP conservatives so predictably shunned whenever change comes around. Could it be that their original failure to recognize the internet’s use as a political tool — a failure the more progressive Dems at MoveOn.org kept rubbing in their faces—was being used in a calculated manner to split the vote of their opponents?

First, a little background on RWA (right-wing authoritarians)

There is a strong correlation between right-wingers and poor reasoning or logic skills.
They also tend to believe whatever an authority figure says without question, which is a good thing for them because they also have a harder time than the rest of us understand any answer they might get. Most bizarrely, they don’t give more weight to facts or evidence when determining their lives next move… or, god forbid…a defendants guilt or innocence. They will accept anything that fits or confirms a worldview that features very high scores for paranoia, militancy and religious fundamentalism. These are the people who still refuse to accept that the claims made by Bush allowing him to pursue his policy of attacking Iraq were deliberate lies. Indeed, many belive that WMDs were found, that Saddam WAS behind the WTC, even knowing that Bush denied the link himself.
It’s obvious how easily such personalities can be manipulated into doing virtually anything the clever politician wishes of them since they give every indication of actually preferring to let others determine what their own thoughts should be on virtually everything.

But MOTR and left-leaning persons thankfully do not suffer the same need to have someone else do all the heavy thinking for them. This is best seen by the high incidence of RWA in para-military orgs /and/ , quite obviously when you stop to think about it….fundamentalist religions. Both discourage any thinking that isn’t part of the doctrine it’s authorities feed the submissives.

So this leaves the obvious question of where it was that Paul hoped to get non-GOP, MOTR types who would still take what he said uncritically simply because he was saying all the right things, remaining blind to his political pedigree ? Where was he going to find people who have the same trouble reasoning things out on their own? Who else, but the 9/11 “truth” crowd!!

Their ability to believe a theory that flies in the face of common sense not to mention overwhelming scientific consensus is no less bizarre than the hard-core Bush believers who refuse to accept that their intellectual avatar was wrong. And libertarians, although most have rejected Bush, they still carry many of the same convictions as RWAs. Indeed Bob Jones, the man whose PhD gave the explosives theory the authority that the Milgram experiment exposed in man.
And accept it they did…with the film ‘Loose Change’ fleshing out a hypothesis that Jones admits he has no firm evidence for, despite his minions claims otherwise. They simply will not accept things that run contrary to their belief that they alone know the TRUTH, a trait that also runs very deep in high RWA. Self-righteousness is more common than their hypocrisy…which should give you an idea of how deep it runs.

So the films hundreds of errors of fact, faulty logic, and deliberate distortions of the medium itself, goes on being quoted as Gospel, despite the glaring inconsistencies like the one where Moses somehow describes his own death in a biblical chapter that the laity insists was written by Moses…thus giving rise to his having acted as God’s ghostwriter, the first recored mention of such a thing, and the start of a narrative that ends up a thousand years later being recorded mistakenly as the Father (god), Son (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost-Writer (Moses as the Bible-writer…the Bible being the key to the other two’s success as religious icons.)
But back to our hapless libertarian RWAs who, without a President to follow are wandering about like ninja, too chicken to commit sepeku but so desperate to erase their shame that they are buying whatever an authority figure is selling that gives their lives purpose again. Never mind that this one already belongs to a RWA sect that now exists as a legal, if not openly transparent fraud, religion. Now would it matter if they found out Jones has worked many, many years trying to get more energy out of a system than is needed to run it….the Holy Grail of Perpetual Energy in other words. In fact it was none other than Jones himself who coined the term “Cold Fusion”.

Pons, Flieschmann, and Jones: RWA PhDs

“Ron Paul: The Perpetual Energy Candidate!”

If we agree the US as an Imperialist country is the most dangerous entity to the global peace, and is the leader of western world in bringing poverty to the other countries and is the single promoter of Israel as Apartheid state, the issues of labor rights, pro choice vs. pro life, and capitalism vs. socialism fade out and become unimportant.

What is applied as “left” or “progressive” in many occasions, is skewed somehow to accepting the status que and dominant thoughts (that racism against Jews and Black is s in but racism against Arabs and Muslims is ok ) and does not follow the rules of universality.

What the pro-Israelis under cover of “left” or “progressive” mostly insinuate is we should keep the Empire because some countries (specifically Middle Eastern) are inhabited by creature which are not as human as others and so we don’t have to be too much against Empire. But in the mean time the “kosher” inequalities such as disenfranchising gays, lesbians ; or polarization of society to rich and poor can be criticized (mildly and not to the point that changes the status).

I have known myself as “left” for more than 20 years and what I see in the “left movement” in US is their lack of capability in self criticism to the core. What I only hear is repeating the same mantra that “left has to move” just like poking a tired and old horse.

One main reason of demise of “left” in my humble opinion is that those who aspiring social equality and justice are following incomplete models of Europe do not understand that the phenomenon in the history only occurs once and can not be repeated. If Sweden and Norway are what they are is because US is what it is, all as subcategory of a bigger system with their own roles and paths.

True Progressives would serve their ideals far more by going back to the basics and define the US not only as a polarized and also Caste like society with impenetrable hierarchy, but also as the police of the world. The bully spills some crumbs not only in satellite countries but also on her own poor people, so the class structure of the country can not be changed until this flow of wealth (in form of looting and workforce i.e. sweatshops etc.) continues from outside, and by wars, violence and intimidati

The left-right spectrum is extremely revealing if it is taught properly. So the talk here of eliminating it is an idea that I strongly suspect finds it roots in yet another deliberate attempt by would-be tyrants to silence academia for the truths they hold and the authority with which they are able to speak and challenge the rhetoric used to gain and hold power.

The revolution simply signifies that some republicans are waking up just like many democrats woke up in the ’60s. [small cap r,d intentional]

Let’s wish them better luck, but don’t count on it.

But more to your point (hey..I take whatever chance I can to put that idea out there, fishing for feedback ), specifically “but we know that over time the ideological representations shift all over the place. They become distorting schisms rather than providing fresh looks at problems - particularly root causes - and opportunities to resolve these outside of these ideological bents”, yes, I agree with that as well. But I see the solution as education on what the actual differences are that delineate the ideological left from right, rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater as you seem to be suggesting. I think an early, grade-school teaching of what their essential differences are would go a very long way in resolving many of the problems we now face. Propagandists, left and right, easily tar opponents with these labels hoping to raise the spector of either Stalin’s or Hitlers excesses because the reasons for designating Stalin/left and Hitler/right are left until college entry, which by then sees students with heads already hopelessly muddled. But if they knew why Hitler and Stalin are natural ideological enemies, how the spectrum reflects the egality which each cultures economic model manages to dispurse it’s wealth, with power and wealth being intrinsically bound to other….each following the other in lockstep unless a conscious effort is made to redistribute it more equitably. The Potlatch of PNW natives is a well-known instance of a societies recognition of the problems inherent in hoarding with steps taken to alleviate it. But again, I digress.

An understanding of the left/right social dynamic would go a long way in understanding why the governments of capitalist economies seldom practice what they preach. It lays bare the reasoning behind why, during the Spanish Civil War, we saw the Church, the monarchists, the military, and the industrial elite the world over siding with Franco….a fascist. It comes as a shock to those who don’t understand this dichotomy in mans thinking to learn that Shell fuel oil filled the tanks of the Messershmitts that bombed Quernica. I won’t even try to to explain the potential impact that the the trade in fine Valencian oranges may have had on world history. The significance of the alliances formed during that war are lost on most. But for those who do get it, there’s a massive Picasso hanging over the main assembly hall of the UN. Let’s just say that it’s the reason the Lincoln Brigades had to volunteer and pay their way over to fight alongside the democratic Spanish forces (”Republicans” ironically ) who were already fighting alongside the communist and Anarchists (it was a political party there). It was a futile effort that ended in 1939…the very year Hitler decided things were looking so good he’d push on into Poland. Gee, I wonder why?

No, I realize it seems somewhat cliche’ to use “class-conflict” as a motivating factor for wars, but the fact is that most of the centuries worst conflicts have precisely that laying at their core. So “left-right” is by no means an arbitrary distinction, although it has been so muddied up by pseudo-intellectuals and propagandists that one could reasonably think that. But it is primarily a measure of wealth, where wealth is almost always a measure of status, and both are a measure of ones class. Teach that to the young and remind them often, and I fully believe that a lot of the BS we see coming from our own or other leaders would be recognized for the self-serving crap that it is.

Oh. And btw. I am not a communist, as I’m sure many have already decided. I simply believe that some things are too important to be left in the hands of profiteers while others are to complicated or individualistic to be left to mindless bureaucrats. Like many things it life, it seems that a well-thought out mix of socialism and market-forces would be infinitely superior to the either/or thinking that mars the thinking of the conservative extremists at both ends.

Cheers
Mycos

Let’s say we have a urban community owned corporation that supports buy local, and hires primarily local people, is in fact owned by the community and or workers - no need for unions because management and employee are one and the same - voila!!! No need for binding arbitration or divisive conflict. What to make of this. Suppose a new fleet of flexible transport is started with the genius of some local high school graduate entrepreneurs who reduce the carbon foot print, eliminate massive infrastructure costs to the community, offer a flexible, convenient freedom from fossil poluting autos and congestion, and parking issues; hiring and servicing locals, who then buy the business making it once again a locally owned business serving locals with most of the currency kept in the community, thus creating community wealth, producing vibrant urban and city region with import/replacement continuously at work, a recession proof, self-sustaining, self-sufficient democracy - grass-roots gone wild! What’s more it unleashes the power of creativity through sustainable green manufacturing, manages real local currency on the basis of sane import/export policies (again local).

And what is this - socialism? capitalism? right? left?

The problem with left/right is how we come to rely on these dichotomies has if they have an objective existence. I’m not saying that they never have a place, but we know that over time the ideological representations shift all over the place. They become distorting schisms rather than providing fresh looks at problems - particularly root causes - and opportunities to resolve these outside of these ideological bents.

It’s the old saw “when all you have is a hammer as a solution, every problem is a nail”. It’s a big reason for our ineptness at solving problem when we really know what the solutions are but they don’t fit into left/right schisms (including our economic crisis). That makes left/right very dangerous to survival at all levels.