Comments on: Putin Agonistes: Missile Defense will not be Deployed

By: Marcelle Cendrars

Marcelle Cendrars — Tue, 25 Dec 2007 17:06:03 +0000

Happy holidays, one and all.

Dear Lloyd: Just checked. There IS a comment clocked 8:51, I believe.

Marcelle Love

By: Lloyd Rowsey

Lloyd Rowsey — Tue, 25 Dec 2007 16:06:40 +0000

Marcelle. The post to which I referred you follows Kim’s article of 12.24, pretty near the bottom, at “Lloyd Rowsey said on December 24th, 2007 at 10:51 pm.” I do not find a subsequent comment from you in that thread. Other than a juxtapostion of a couple of words, I don’t believe I can express myself any more clearly than I did in that post. - Lloyd

By: Marcelle Cendrars

Marcelle Cendrars — Tue, 25 Dec 2007 15:46:31 +0000

Thanks, Lloyd. If you’re talking about the comment concerning DNow not having resisters on…fine. Did you say more about the dearth of “activity” in general? I added a comment there just now. DNow, as noted, is deficient –to a serious degree (and has been for quite some time)– on several counts. — Marcelle

By: Lloyd Rowsey

Lloyd Rowsey — Tue, 25 Dec 2007 06:32:19 +0000

Several months ago Margaret Kimberly (an editor of BAR) stated that when the Chipmunk hits Iran, Americans who do not leave their homes and protest in the streets will be the same as good Germans who did not protest Hitler in the mid-1930’s. I am not of one mind about this, and Mulga, I hope you did not read my compliment to Di Eagle to say that I am. In fact, I’ve been thinking a lot about what I’ll do when the Chipmunk wakes up one morning and decides it’s time.

Marcelle. You posted your 7:03 comment almost four hours before I posted a comment to Kim Petersen’s article “Sympathy for the Occupiers” (12.24), but I had not read yours. Perhaps if you read my post you will get some idea of what I think “on the plane of what’s NOT done by the commentators and readers (and editors and writers) here.”

By: Marcelle Cendrars

Marcelle Cendrars — Tue, 25 Dec 2007 02:03:15 +0000

My problem has nothing to do with ‘the comparison’ on the plane of deeds done by the powers that be, but rather on the plane of what’s NOT done by the commentators and readers here. Or at least…what’s not being talked about being done to counteract the deeds of the U.S. Surely, if one were a compassionate, sensible citizen in Nazi Germany (and aligned against the powers in office and national momentum)…one would be involved in serious resistance. Reasonable assumption? Well, the “disconnect” comes when we take a look at all the non-action oriented talk that goes on…juxtaposed with USer atrocities. — Marcelle Cendrars

By: Mulga Mumblebrain

Mulga Mumblebrain — Mon, 24 Dec 2007 22:31:03 +0000

I think Norman Finkelstein’s observation, which was along the lines of ‘If you do not wish to be compared to the Nazis, stop acting like them’, is more apposite. The Nazis have become a convenient distraction. No matter how gross the crimes of the West, no matter how many countries devastated, how many millions slaughtered, how dreadful the incessant racist denigration of the victims, the catchcry is always ‘ How dare you compare us to the Nazis!’. The whole process of self-exculpation by the world’s greatest murderers, destroyers and barbarians is sickening.I’m afraid I’m completely in accord with Finkelstein.

By: Lloyd Rowsey

Lloyd Rowsey — Mon, 24 Dec 2007 14:58:12 +0000

Gooood Rule, Di Eagle!! Is “Godwin’s Rule” or “Godwin’s Law” referenced at Wikipedia’s “Nazism” page? Or does this sh-t change so fast you couldn’t say?

By: Di Eagle an' Di Bear

Di Eagle an' Di Bear — Mon, 24 Dec 2007 00:30:07 +0000

Corrected location:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%E2%80%99s_law

By: Di Eagle an' Di Bear

Di Eagle an' Di Bear — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 08:43:56 +0000

If only those commenting could stop bringing the Nazis into the discussion. The comparisons are overused and tend to cause effective argument to be diluted. Please note:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law

By: Mulga Mumblebrain

Mulga Mumblebrain — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:05:29 +0000

I find it always intriguing, when the record of US/Western murderousness is so well documented, when certain axioms of Western behaviour, eg destruction of democratic governments that do not follow US orders as in Greece, Chile, Nicaragua for starters, the support, often for many years, of utterly brutal dictators, and violent aggression that has killed tens of millions, are an open book, that there is still this obdurate insistence on the Right that the US is the font of all virtue. Here in Australia florid sycophancy to the US is a requirement for political life. Even the tiniest little criticism of our Big Brother, is greeted by Rightwing media (the only sort we have) with abuse. If heike dislikes ad hominem attacks, she ought to try criticising the US or, even more particularly,Israel, in Australia. Criticism of Israel’s behaviour, is automatically decried as anti-Semitism, a familiar tactic. While the editorial and opinion pages are filled with nauseating pap detailing Israel’s infinite morality and ethical purity, and the evil viciousness of the ‘terrorwists’, who are, naturally, to blame for the violence in its entirety, the presence of blogs has allowed a small crack to appear in the edifice of Rightwing Group Think. Naturally the emergence from the gloom of opinions, although shared by most people around the world, that have been thoroughly suppressed and marginalised, has outraged the pro-Israel and pro-US bigots. Like all bullies used to getting their way all the time, resistance from the victims of their ideological and propaganda bully tactics, arouses furious response. All critics of Israel are, by definition, anti-Semites intent on another ‘Holocaust’. Even if the arguments presented are familiar to Israelis or in certain Jewish circles, critics are still the new Nazis. What we are dealing with is, of course, the mindset of the fanatic. No nation is as thoroughly brainwashed in the religion of self-adoration as the US, with Israel not far behind. It takes real courage, which many Yanks and Israelis have managed to display, to state the facts of their countries crimes. Much easier to simply ignore history and the suffering of millions of untermenschen, and batten down the hatches, and simply deny everything and smear the truth-tellers.

By: Marcelle Cendrars

Marcelle Cendrars — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:41:11 +0000

Instead of the “I’m right, you’re wrong” syndrome…let’s focus on one digestible point at a time, okay? The idea is to take ideas agreed upon here…and run with them in the real world, yes? We’re not adding comments here for the purpose of establishing our personal rung in the righteous hierarcy, are we? Someone write an article. Good, if it’s something that contributes to our taking action on some level OR learning something very important…that hasn’t be redundantly beaten to death. Okay…then each of us has an interest in, an obligation to chew on it…and help everyone focus on how this or that point is on or off. But the LONG entries –undedited– don’t help. Especially if they’re commentator-centered. Blessings in solidarity, Marcelle P.S. We should very much keep in mind the limited time each reader has, and –in many cases– very limited attention span.

By: heike

heike — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:24:40 +0000

Sorry, Mr. P, it’s MM who does the ad hominem tirades. But for you, that’s par for the course, isn’t it? All the ad hominem tirades that are fit to print, right? Shall I send you in what his friends in Adelaide had to say about him? Maybe that’s not fit to print either? Frankly, you should also look at your own writing and see how many ad hominem tirades you are printing.

By: Lloyd Rowsey

Lloyd Rowsey — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:21:40 +0000

Maybe you could let ‘em start, KP, but not finish. Presumably DV does not want to be like Z or CounterPunch?

By: Kim Petersen

Kim Petersen — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 13:22:22 +0000

Heike,
If you respond to the topic(s) being discussed — fine, opposing viewpoints will be respected. But when commenters start on ad hominem tirades, whatever the viewpoint, then these will be censored. It is simple as that.

By: Mulga Mumblebrain

Mulga Mumblebrain — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 07:35:41 +0000

Yes, please heike, do defend the indefensible once again. Praise the unpraiseworthy and, whatever you do, never forget to remind us of the West’s ‘moral purity’. That’s the one that always helps me clear my phlegm, for which I am grateful.

By: Sunil Sharma

Sunil Sharma — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 05:40:26 +0000

Heike, WTF are you talking about? As far as I know, there was no response to MM from you that I saw in the queue. Maybe you had a lot of abusive language in it that tripped the SPAM ejector. Try posting it again.

– Sunil

By: Marcelle Cendrars

Marcelle Cendrars — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 03:29:10 +0000

Am I missing something here? If the people challenging Author Mike really want a response to what they’re putting on the table here…why don’t they write directly to the author and ask for responses to be plugged in here for one and all to digest? VERY long entries are suspect. With a few exceptions perhaps. Generally, they keep readers from being able to zero in on a few digestible points…which can be beneficial to debate in our minds. For me, for instance, I’d like the person above who said something about DV enjoying bashing the U.S. –it being good copy– to make clear WHY the U.S. is NOT considered at least as bad as Nazi Germany…which is something that (that writer points out) Putin invoked. To review: a) ask Author Mike to respond directly and b) respond to my question…in a senttence or two. Best, Marcelle

By: heike

heike — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 02:03:20 +0000

My response to MM was censored by the editors. Now you see it, now you don’t. Thank you for your untiring commitment to free speech (for those whose views you favor).

By: Laure Franges

Laure Franges — Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:33:30 +0000

Brzezinky,Kissinger,Wolfowitz,Perle to name but a few,should have all ended up on the gallows like their late comrade in crime Saddam.
But instead these pseudo Americans receive Nobel prizes and universal acclaim for their genocidal conspiracies and the making of the collapse of the Republic.
Ignorance,stupidity and greed have prevailed,the people have accepted their gods.The gods will destroy Rome.And when Rome falls,be certain that the above mentionned criminals will be back in their country of origin
barking their hate of this Republic.

By: Mulga Mumblebrain

Mulga Mumblebrain — Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:28:13 +0000

Heike makes an impassioned defense of US aggressiveness. Apparently in the Heike universe it was OK to abrogate the ABM Treaty to attempt to gain a nuclear first-strike capability against Russia. As was noted in the ’80’s, ‘missile defense’ makes no sense against a first-strike against the US. However, if the US strikes first, and unlike the USSR and Russia it has refused to abjure the use of a nuclear first strike, even against non-nuclear powers, its so-called ‘misslie defence’ will have no problem with any Russian missiles that survive. US capabilities for a sneak first-strike have been relentlessly built up, and the Russians are no fools. They can read Foreign Affairs, see the boastfulness of claims that the US is now capable of destroying both Russia and China’s missile forces, and that a new doctrine of ‘compellence’ is replacing deterrence, to the US’s advantage. The Russians know that the US and its surrogates in the National Endowment for Democracy were behind the Georgian, Serbian and Ukrainian election triumphs of Quisling, pro-Western thugs. The Russians can read US strategic doctrine, with which heike seems unfamiliar, and see for themselves that the US intends to dominate space, and, from there, the entire globe. The Russians can study history, unlike heike who apparently specialises in faery stories of Yankee benevolence, and see the relentless drive to global empire from 1776 to this day. They can count the tens of millions of bodies, from El Salvador to Iraq, the ruthless abrogation of treaty after treaty, the relentless drive for nuclear superiority, and the unending lies, mysteriously transmuted to revealed truths in the minds of the likes of heike, and they can draw sensible conclusions. They have seen Russia humiliated by the bibulous Yankee stooge Yeltsin. Who can forget his appalling lie that Yankee POWs were still imprisoned in Siberia, from Vietnam or Korea, I can’t remember which. Yankee Messianism, driven by capitalist greed, bottomless racial contempt for the globe’s untermenschen, leavened with the imbecile viciousness of Christian fundamentalist obscurantism, and, more recently, by the malign influence of that other Messianic racist theocracy, Israel, is undoubtedly the greatest threat to humanity in history. The victims of its insatiable expansionism number in the tens of millions already, but even greater massacres loom. The Yankee Reich hasn’t spent tens of billions on biowarfare in the last thirty years to find a cure for the common cold. Apparently all this unparalleled murderousness impresses heike as proof positive of Yankee nobility and decency. In most of the world it is seen for what it is. Ruthless, racist, totalitarian imperialism, determined to rule the world in perpetuity. Fortunately the Russians have produced a leader with the intelligence to realise that in the Yankee Empire only the basest types are chosen as imperial stooges. Together with the Chinese, and the Indians, if they can produce a self-respecting leadership rather than the current toadies, Yankee aggression can be resisted. If such resistance is successful, the US Reich will implode. Like a cancer it must grow, or die. I rather imagine the US would better serve its people and be less of a threat to the world, if it were broken up into a loose federation of four or five states.