Comments on: Culling the Herd http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Mon, 01 Dec 2008 21:28:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Mary Largent http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11396 Mary Largent Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:43:03 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11396 As a farmer, I am not found of the 'culling the herd" metaphor. Of course, the farmer has to make a living, but there is also a question of stewardship of the land behind culling. On a farm, there is no option than to keep the number of animals inside the limits of the space, food and other resources available. Slaughtering is a reality most people caring for their animals could to without, but its a responsability the farmer took upon itsef because the animals, left to their own design, will breed and the herd will grow exponentionally. One would hope that humans behave responsibly enough to take upon themselves to limit their number. I do not suscribe to any form of mass elimination of the human population. But overpopulation is nonetheless a real issue. I would add coupled to overconsumption. There is too many of us and the ecological footprint of developped countries is too heavy for our small planet. This being said, family planning and women education are proven solutions, far more acceptable and compassionate than letting nature takes its course. Famine and epidemics are often the results of a species which overshot the carrying capacity of its environment. Its unfair to shoot the messengers from the scientific community, as Ms. Sample did in the case of Dr. Pianka. It's a pleasing though to imagine that humanity will control its greed and its biological urge to multiply and move toward sustainability. Is it likely? As long as the problem is denied and the likes of Paul Erhlich and Eric Pianka are burned at the stake for saying out loud what common sense should make obvious, its doubtful. As a farmer, I am not found of the ‘culling the herd” metaphor. Of course, the farmer has to make a living, but there is also a question of stewardship of the land behind culling. On a farm, there is no option than to keep the number of animals inside the limits of the space, food and other resources available. Slaughtering is a reality most people caring for their animals could to without, but its a responsability the farmer took upon itsef because the animals, left to their own design, will breed and the herd will grow exponentionally. One would hope that humans behave responsibly enough to take upon themselves to limit their number.
I do not suscribe to any form of mass elimination of the human population. But overpopulation is nonetheless a real issue. I would add coupled to overconsumption. There is too many of us and the ecological footprint of developped countries is too heavy for our small planet. This being said, family planning and women education are proven solutions, far more acceptable and compassionate than letting nature takes its course.
Famine and epidemics are often the results of a species which overshot the carrying capacity of its environment. Its unfair to shoot the messengers from the scientific community, as Ms. Sample did in the case of Dr. Pianka. It’s a pleasing though to imagine that humanity will control its greed and its biological urge to multiply and move toward sustainability. Is it likely? As long as the problem is denied and the likes of Paul Erhlich and Eric Pianka are burned at the stake for saying out loud what common sense should make obvious, its doubtful.

]]> By: gerald spezio http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11366 gerald spezio Fri, 21 Dec 2007 14:52:51 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11366 Mulga, Your following statement is what is known as psycho-history, and is a completely dis-credited Freudian based historical school "The one consistent thread in the history of humanity, and ‘Western Civilization’ in particular, is the lust for mass murder of certain types of psychopathic individuals." The phrase; 'lust for mass murder of certain types of psychopathic individuals," is Freudian literature but certainly not scientific history. Mulga, Your following statement is what is known as psycho-history, and is a completely dis-credited Freudian based historical school

“The one consistent thread in the history of humanity, and ‘Western Civilization’ in particular, is the lust for mass murder of certain types of psychopathic individuals.”

The phrase; ‘lust for mass murder of certain types of psychopathic individuals,” is Freudian literature but certainly not scientific history.

]]> By: Adonis Tate http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11273 Adonis Tate Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:29:51 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11273 I read Dr Pianka's speech, and can aver that he did not take the step that was broadly attributed to him. He merely said words to the effect that an airborn strain of ebola might evolve, and would achieve the effect of depopulating our crowded planet. Not one word about weaponization. Similarly, during and after the Rwandan genocide, no one in the press mentioned that Rwanda is the world's most densely populated country, or very close to it. Well, if anyone mentioned it, this news junkie (me) missed it. Well, now I gotta state squarely that I'm not justifying that incident of ethnic cleansing, only linking it causally to overpopulation. Now that Third World countries have chlorine, road systems, vaccines, antibiotics, fertilizers, etc, their populations are at risk of growing past the carrying capacity of the environment, and we really should be providing birth control to them as a humanitarian act. Only a hysterical media-hog would call it genocide. I read Dr Pianka’s speech, and can aver that he did not take the step that was broadly attributed to him. He merely said words to the effect that an airborn strain of ebola might evolve, and would achieve the effect of depopulating our crowded planet. Not one word about weaponization. Similarly, during and after the Rwandan genocide, no one in the press mentioned that Rwanda is the world’s most densely populated country, or very close to it. Well, if anyone mentioned it, this news junkie (me) missed it. Well, now I gotta state squarely that I’m not justifying that incident of ethnic cleansing, only linking it causally to overpopulation. Now that Third World countries have chlorine, road systems, vaccines, antibiotics, fertilizers, etc, their populations are at risk of growing past the carrying capacity of the environment, and we really should be providing birth control to them as a humanitarian act. Only a hysterical media-hog would call it genocide.

]]> By: Mulga Mumblebrain http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11255 Mulga Mumblebrain Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:02:08 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11255 The reality of a planned, unfolding, Malthusian solution to global overpopulation is there for all to see. Climate change is being impelled forward, and all efforts at remediation are being stymied. Why? Clearly the establishments of The West are not populated entirely by denialist cretins screeching about solar radiation and the ice-caps of Mars. They know the truth, yet they sabotage all amelioration. It seems obvious to me, and I believe is confirmed by reports that the Pentagon, the real power centre of the Yankee Reich, is planning for the savage wars of climate change induced chaos, that our masters intend to allow climate change, with its inherent drought, flood and pestilence, to cull billions. They seem convinced that they can survive in their gated, heavily armed communities of privilege, and emerge to rule a world cleansed of 'useless eaters'. The process is being hastened, in a coldly deliberate manner, by policies such as the promotion of biofuels, such as ethanol. To allow the Yankee masters to keep driving their SUVs more and more of the world's grain is being diverted, to ethanol production, while grain prices skyrocket. This will soon convert the habitual malnourishment of hundreds of millions of poor into death by starvation, and spread hunger further. Moreover the US has not invested tens of billions in recent years in biowarfare research for no reason. We know already that there has been much research into ethnically specific diseases, clearly weapons designed for mass murder and genocide. What is going on in the 'black programs' kept secret, in the era of genetic engineering, boggles the mind. The one consistent thread in the history of humanity, and 'Western Civilization' in particular, is the lust for mass murder of certain types of psychopathic individuals. From the extermination of tens of millions of the indigenous of the Western Hemisphere, accompanied by truly grotesque cruelties, the millions worked to death by slavery, the tens of millions deliberately starved or worked to death, on rations less than those at Belsen, in British ruled India, through to the current Holocaust of thirty to fifty thousand children under five dying each and every day from easily preventable disease, the record of European 'civilization' is that of an enormous charnal house. Faced with ecological collapse I am convinced the Masters of Humanity have embarked on a program of mass murder that will put their previous such endeavours in the shade. After it's over, they will rewrite history,in the familiar manner, being sure to heap praise on their 'moral purity', and bitterly regret the 'unavoidable' passing of those lesser types less fit for continued survival. The reality of a planned, unfolding, Malthusian solution to global overpopulation is there for all to see. Climate change is being impelled forward, and all efforts at remediation are being stymied. Why? Clearly the establishments of The West are not populated entirely by denialist cretins screeching about solar radiation and the ice-caps of Mars. They know the truth, yet they sabotage all amelioration. It seems obvious to me, and I believe is confirmed by reports that the Pentagon, the real power centre of the Yankee Reich, is planning for the savage wars of climate change induced chaos, that our masters intend to allow climate change, with its inherent drought, flood and pestilence, to cull billions. They seem convinced that they can survive in their gated, heavily armed communities of privilege, and emerge to rule a world cleansed of ‘useless eaters’. The process is being hastened, in a coldly deliberate manner, by policies such as the promotion of biofuels, such as ethanol. To allow the Yankee masters to keep driving their SUVs more and more of the world’s grain is being diverted, to ethanol production, while grain prices skyrocket. This will soon convert the habitual malnourishment of hundreds of millions of poor into death by starvation, and spread hunger further. Moreover the US has not invested tens of billions in recent years in biowarfare research for no reason. We know already that there has been much research into ethnically specific diseases, clearly weapons designed for mass murder and genocide. What is going on in the ‘black programs’ kept secret, in the era of genetic engineering, boggles the mind. The one consistent thread in the history of humanity, and ‘Western Civilization’ in particular, is the lust for mass murder of certain types of psychopathic individuals. From the extermination of tens of millions of the indigenous of the Western Hemisphere, accompanied by truly grotesque cruelties, the millions worked to death by slavery, the tens of millions deliberately starved or worked to death, on rations less than those at Belsen, in British ruled India, through to the current Holocaust of thirty to fifty thousand children under five dying each and every day from easily preventable disease, the record of European ‘civilization’ is that of an enormous charnal house. Faced with ecological collapse I am convinced the Masters of Humanity have embarked on a program of mass murder that will put their previous such endeavours in the shade. After it’s over, they will rewrite history,in the familiar manner, being sure to heap praise on their ‘moral purity’, and bitterly regret the ‘unavoidable’ passing of those lesser types less fit for continued survival.

]]> By: John Feeney http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11252 John Feeney Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:15:43 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11252 Hmm, well, without looking into the rest, I do know this is unfortunately a serious misreporting of what Eric Pianka said. Mims is a creationist who runs an amateur science site. Apparently, he went to Pianka's talk (which Pianka has given many times) then grossly misrepresented what Pianka had said, which did not involve advocating killing anyone. Some links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mims-Pianka_controversy http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~varanus/Everybody.html http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/04/the_swiftboating_of_eric_piank.php http://evolvethought.blogspot.com/2006/04/what-pianka-really-thinks.html Here, even the authors of a creationist site retract their support of Mim's reporting: http://telicthoughts.com/a-promise/ Hmm, well, without looking into the rest, I do know this is unfortunately a serious misreporting of what Eric Pianka said. Mims is a creationist who runs an amateur science site. Apparently, he went to Pianka’s talk (which Pianka has given many times) then grossly misrepresented what Pianka had said, which did not involve advocating killing anyone. Some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mims-Pianka_controversy

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~varanus/Everybody.html

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/04/the_swiftboating_of_eric_piank.php

http://evolvethought.blogspot.com/2006/04/what-pianka-really-thinks.html

Here, even the authors of a creationist site retract their support of Mim’s reporting:

http://telicthoughts.com/a-promise/

]]> By: heike http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11235 heike Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:58:33 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11235 You are badly misreading both Article 2 as well as NSSM200. In the case of the former: a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. No one, except perhaps Lyndon Larouche and the Catholic Church argue that abortions are tantamount to genocide. Are you a member of either organization? Article (d) concerns preventing, that is to say, stopping births within a group, not limiting them. If you argue otherwise, you would have to agree that birth control in the U.S. is tantamount to genocide. Secondly, you completely misrepresent the intent and language of NSSM 200 to suggest that it advocates some kind of genocidal policy. It makes nonsense to send food aid to countries that don't cooperate by limiting population growth. The notion that this constitutes "genocide" is simply a fantasy. If countries want to have unlimited population growth, they don't need to have the American taxpayer fit the bill. There is no language about cutting off food supplies, and the NSSM is quitesensitive about avoiding any appearance of coercion. You are badly misreading both Article 2 as well as NSSM200. In the case of the former:
a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

No one, except perhaps Lyndon Larouche and the Catholic Church argue that abortions are tantamount to genocide. Are you a member of either organization? Article (d) concerns preventing, that is to say, stopping births within a group, not limiting them. If you argue otherwise, you would have to agree that birth control in the U.S. is tantamount to genocide.

Secondly, you completely misrepresent the intent and language of NSSM 200 to suggest that it advocates some kind of genocidal policy. It makes nonsense to send food aid to countries that don’t cooperate by limiting population growth. The notion that this constitutes “genocide” is simply a fantasy. If countries want to have unlimited population growth, they don’t need to have the American taxpayer fit the bill. There is no language about cutting off food supplies, and the NSSM is quitesensitive about avoiding any appearance of coercion.

]]> By: Sheila Samples http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11204 Sheila Samples Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:19:50 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11204 To Tara... Thank you so much for your insight -- and kind words. To Tara…

Thank you so much for your insight — and kind words.

]]> By: Sheila Samples http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11203 Sheila Samples Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:17:42 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11203 To heike... Please follow the link on the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide -- and read Article II. If you believe, as you say, "The idea is not to commit genocide on Third World populations but to teach them ways to limit the number of children they have so they can adequately feed and clothe their families," then you did not read the Kissinger Memo in its entirety. True, that was the "idea," but Kissinger went on to propose if they did not "limit the number of children" their food supplies would be cut off, and if this led to "war and famine," so be it. To heike…

Please follow the link on the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide — and read Article II.

If you believe, as you say, “The idea is not to commit genocide on Third World populations but to teach them ways to limit the number of children they have so they can adequately feed and clothe their families,” then you did not read the Kissinger Memo in its entirety. True, that was the “idea,” but Kissinger went on to propose if they did not “limit the number of children” their food supplies would be cut off, and if this led to “war and famine,” so be it.

]]> By: Tara http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11176 Tara Tue, 18 Dec 2007 21:27:24 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11176 Hear hear! Irregardless of the naysayers whose employment it is to inject cynicism and hopelessness into every enlightened discourse, your points are well made and well received. We have a group of privileged white male individuals in power and in office, along with the sychophants who enable them and, at the core of their being is a conditioned distortion of undeserved entitlement mixed in with a deep seeded white supremist mentality which pervades their every action and reaction. This, coupled with a total lack of being held accountable for any of their horrific, despicable actions creates a very sinister concoction, of which many innocent, good people are being destroyed each and every moment of the day. You don't have to look far to see it. Its been going on for centuries. The "culling" will most assuredly continue as low as the cud eating Americans continue to deny the gates closing in on them as well. I don't by any means blame Americans as much as I do the deceitful folks in power who sadistically pray on people's kindness and open trust, however at some point, people must be slapped into sobriety if you will. At some point we have to play grown ups and stop acting like silly teenagers wanting everyone to like us, and yet neglecting those who are telling us what we don't want to hear. Thank you for your wonderful article Ms. Samples. By all means, keep up the wonderful work! Hear hear!

Irregardless of the naysayers whose employment it is to inject cynicism and hopelessness into every enlightened discourse, your points are well made and well received.

We have a group of privileged white male individuals in power and in office, along with the sychophants who enable them and, at the core of their being is a conditioned distortion of undeserved entitlement mixed in with a deep seeded white supremist mentality which pervades their every action and reaction.

This, coupled with a total lack of being held accountable for any of their horrific, despicable actions creates a very sinister concoction, of which many innocent, good people are being destroyed each and every moment of the day.

You don’t have to look far to see it. Its been going on for centuries. The “culling” will most assuredly continue as low as the cud eating Americans continue to deny the gates closing in on them as well. I don’t by any means blame Americans as much as I do the deceitful folks in power who sadistically pray on people’s kindness and open trust, however at some point, people must be slapped into sobriety if you will. At some point we have to play grown ups and stop acting like silly teenagers wanting everyone to like us, and yet neglecting those who are telling us what we don’t want to hear.

Thank you for your wonderful article Ms. Samples. By all means, keep up the wonderful work!

]]> By: heike http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11164 heike Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:06:51 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11164 Sorry, but even people with the wildest imagnations cannot equate our government's feeble response to the victims of Hurricane Katrina with genocide. When you start to use the g word whenever it strikes you, it loses all meaning. Likewise with population control programs. The idea is not to commit genocide on Third World populations but to teach them ways to limit the number of children they have so they can adequately feed and clothe their families. Not even the Catholic Church, which throws around the H word in regard to abortions, suggests that population control programs are genocidal. And if we were really trying to "cull" our population, we wouldn't have Medicare, Social Security, and all other entitlement programs. I'd like to see the party line you spouted when you were working for the government. Sorry, but even people with the wildest imagnations cannot equate our government’s feeble response to the victims of Hurricane Katrina with genocide. When you start to use the g word whenever it strikes you, it loses all meaning. Likewise with population control programs. The idea is not to commit genocide on Third World populations but to teach them ways to limit the number of children they have so they can adequately feed and clothe their families. Not even the Catholic Church, which throws around the H word in regard to abortions, suggests that population control programs are genocidal. And if we were really trying to “cull” our population, we wouldn’t have Medicare, Social Security, and all other entitlement programs.

I’d like to see the party line you spouted when you were working for the government.

]]> By: rgaylor@pvtnetworks.net http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11157 rgaylor@pvtnetworks.net Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:04:36 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11157 Good article. But, you missed a very important point ... and it is this: The reason Americans do not care is NOT because we don't know ... but rather because we see culling (as you so bluntly put it) as in our best interests. What your anti-hero (Kissinger) did was say explicitly what Americans actually want. In other words, we (you and I) are complicit in Kissingerism ... G Good article.
But, you missed a very important point … and it is this:
The reason Americans do not care is NOT because we don’t know … but rather because we see culling (as you so bluntly put it) as in our best interests. What your anti-hero (Kissinger) did was say explicitly what Americans actually want. In other words, we (you and I) are complicit in Kissingerism …

G

]]> By: gerald spezio http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11133 gerald spezio Tue, 18 Dec 2007 15:30:36 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/culling-the-herd/#comment-11133 Sheila, "we" are already stampeding, and the stampeding must continue because it makes culling easier. The Gaza stampede, the Bangladeshie stampede, the Iraq stampede, the black African stampede ... Maybe the big Iranian stampede soon ...? The system is up and running Until twisted preverts without any ethics or the wrong ethics; like that prevert Henry Kissenger, take the ethical training - there will not be any cheap gas, community values, localization, public crappers, or cheap medical marijuana for bewildered minds driven mad by the triangulations and preversions in the zeitgeist. Henry doesn't have legal training, but Joe Lieberman and Hilarious do. All lawyers have professional ethics, or at least they posta. Sheila, “we” are already stampeding, and the stampeding must continue because it makes culling easier.

The Gaza stampede, the Bangladeshie stampede, the Iraq stampede, the black African stampede …

Maybe the big Iranian stampede soon …?

The system is up and running

Until twisted preverts without any ethics or the wrong ethics; like that prevert Henry Kissenger, take the ethical training - there will not be any cheap gas, community values, localization, public crappers, or cheap medical marijuana for bewildered minds driven mad by the triangulations and preversions in the zeitgeist.

Henry doesn’t have legal training, but Joe Lieberman and Hilarious do.

All lawyers have professional ethics, or at least they posta.

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