Comments on: Cratched Does California http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Mon, 08 Sep 2008 00:06:36 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Deadbeat http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11518 Deadbeat Mon, 24 Dec 2007 08:39:58 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11518 <i>which proves to me that the latter [Zionism] is an adjunct of the former [US Imperialism]</i> I agree with your response that UFPJ is not anti-Zionist. However Ron in your <a href="http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/09/questions-that-might-determine-history-a-conversation-with-an-anti-imperialist-organizer" rel="nofollow">DV article of 9/12/07</a> you define "imperialism" as the following... <i>imperialism is the process whereby capitalist nations expand into other countries via economic aid, diplomacy and war in search of raw materials and resources, cheaper labor and new markets</i> Ron, using <b>your</b> definition, UFPJ <i>is</i> "anti-imperialist" because they view the War on Iraq as one of resource conquest and like you promote the "War For Oil" fallacy. Unfortunately Ron, now you are saying that UFPJ is <i>not</i> anti-imperialist. Thus Ron, you've contradicted yourself. My position has been consistent and like International ANSWER, see racism as a tool of conquest. Therefore I agree with you that ANSWER is anti-imperialist. But what make that so? To answer that question simply means your definition of "imperialism" requires an extension. It is not enough to constrain the definition of "imperialism" to resource conquest. By doing you've negated racism as a basis for war and curtail any discussion thereof. Therefore Ron, since your definition of "imperialism" is flawed and incomplete to begin with, limiting the discussion to "imperialism" effectively negates racism as basis for war. Returning to my Malcolm X example, Malcolm addressed racism yet during the last years of his life attempted to <i>internationalize</i> his ideas and movement. He linked racism to U.S. Imperialism but unlike you Ron, Malcolm didn't try to subsume racism to imperialism. Therefore Ron, as I been saying on DV, clarity is vital in order to build solidarity. The reason we remember Malcolm as a radical is because he gave us clarity not obscurity. Thanks, Deadbeat which proves to me that the latter [Zionism] is an adjunct of the former [US Imperialism]

I agree with your response that UFPJ is not anti-Zionist. However Ron in your DV article of 9/12/07 you define “imperialism” as the following…

imperialism is the process whereby capitalist nations expand into other countries via economic aid, diplomacy and war in search of raw materials and resources, cheaper labor and new markets

Ron, using your definition, UFPJ is “anti-imperialist” because they view the War on Iraq as one of resource conquest and like you promote the “War For Oil” fallacy. Unfortunately Ron, now you are saying that UFPJ is not anti-imperialist. Thus Ron, you’ve contradicted yourself.

My position has been consistent and like International ANSWER, see racism as a tool of conquest. Therefore I agree with you that ANSWER is anti-imperialist. But what make that so?

To answer that question simply means your definition of “imperialism” requires an extension. It is not enough to constrain the definition of “imperialism” to resource conquest. By doing you’ve negated racism as a basis for war and curtail any discussion thereof.

Therefore Ron, since your definition of “imperialism” is flawed and incomplete to begin with, limiting the discussion to “imperialism” effectively negates racism as basis for war.

Returning to my Malcolm X example, Malcolm addressed racism yet during the last years of his life attempted to internationalize his ideas and movement. He linked racism to U.S. Imperialism but unlike you Ron, Malcolm didn’t try to subsume racism to imperialism.

Therefore Ron, as I been saying on DV, clarity is vital in order to build solidarity. The reason we remember Malcolm as a radical is because he gave us clarity not obscurity.

Thanks,
Deadbeat

]]> By: ron http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11505 ron Mon, 24 Dec 2007 03:23:14 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11505 I would argue that this is because UFPJ is not anti-imperialist (in additon to not being anti-Zionist, which proves to me that the latter is an adjunct of the former) and ANSWER is anti-imperialist I would argue that this is because UFPJ is not anti-imperialist (in additon to not being anti-Zionist, which proves to me that the latter is an adjunct of the former) and ANSWER is anti-imperialist

]]> By: Deadbeat http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11501 Deadbeat Mon, 24 Dec 2007 02:03:17 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11501 <i>No one is leaving Zionism off the hook.</i> Then why is the anti-war movement in a shambles when 70% of the population is against the war? The split between UFPJ & and ANSWER is directly the result of the left's split over this issue. The failure of the left to confront this issue is the reason for the political vacuum that is now being filled and addressed by the right. No one is leaving Zionism off the hook.

Then why is the anti-war movement in a shambles when 70% of the population is against the war? The split between UFPJ & and ANSWER is directly the result of the left’s split over this issue. The failure of the left to confront this issue is the reason for the political vacuum that is now being filled and addressed by the right.

]]> By: ron http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11495 ron Sun, 23 Dec 2007 19:21:50 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11495 No one is leaving Zionism off the hook. No one is leaving Zionism off the hook.

]]> By: Deadbeat http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11469 Deadbeat Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:14:40 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11469 <i>Gerald, what I see is that Ron does not deny the role of Zionism in the racist, colonialist expansionism of Israel; he merely grants American imperialism preeminence. You grant Zionism preeminence. Both imperialism and Zionism are rotten to the core. To defeat them both solidarity is requisite for progressives. It is fine to debate the theoretical underpinnings of rotten forces at work in the world, but in the end let’s be respectful of the other person’s views and seek solidarity in overthrowing the rotten forces. That we would all agree that Zionism and imperialism must be overthrown takes precedence over the squabbles of which is a greater evil — both are evil.</i> You are right -- both are evil. But then why are anti-Zionist being ridicule for exposing how Zionism is INFLUENCING U.S Imperialism. These are not two concrete ideologies they are symbiotic and understand, articulating, and educating folks about the symbiosis is extremely important. To only confront "U.S. Imperialism" will leave Zionist off the hook to reemerge whenever they see fit. To build solidarity honesty not deception is vital. Gerald, what I see is that Ron does not deny the role of Zionism in the racist, colonialist expansionism of Israel; he merely grants American imperialism preeminence. You grant Zionism preeminence. Both imperialism and Zionism are rotten to the core. To defeat them both solidarity is requisite for progressives. It is fine to debate the theoretical underpinnings of rotten forces at work in the world, but in the end let’s be respectful of the other person’s views and seek solidarity in overthrowing the rotten forces. That we would all agree that Zionism and imperialism must be overthrown takes precedence over the squabbles of which is a greater evil — both are evil.

You are right — both are evil. But then why are anti-Zionist being ridicule for exposing how Zionism is INFLUENCING U.S Imperialism. These are not two concrete ideologies they are symbiotic and understand, articulating, and educating folks about the symbiosis is extremely important. To only confront “U.S. Imperialism” will leave Zionist off the hook to reemerge whenever they see fit. To build solidarity honesty not deception is vital.

]]> By: Deadbeat http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11468 Deadbeat Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:10:34 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11468 Mr. Jacobs takes the position that he doesn’t ignores the role Zionism plays in the Middle East but doesn’t believe it to the “the one and guiding force behind all that is wrong there.” He is presenting an analysis that “[looks] at the broader history of the region and concludes that U.S. Imperialism … play[s] a more important role”. On oil he states that “[t]he The US needs to control energy resources to maintain and expand its dominance.” According to Mr. Jacobs that the need for the U.S. to control oil is written in the neoconservative’s blueprint Project of a New American Century (PNAC) and in neoliberals writings and interprets history from Marx, Luxembourg and Lenin to conclude that “US Imperialism trumps Zionism”. These seem like reasonable and cogent arguments. Who can argue with … history? Also who can question ones “radicalism” when you name drop Marx, Lenin, and Luxembourg? Essentially Mr. Jacob’s position matches the position of the ISO on the War in Iraq which places the onus on “U.S. Imperialism”. However that argument is specious because it employs a strawman fallacy of “U.S. Imperialism”. This argument instead of enlightening listeners has the opposite effect of redirecting listeners away from confronting extremely important issues of race and power as configured within U.S. society. Notice that Mr. Jacobs only sees Zionism as a Middle East issue. The problem with that view is that Zionism is an ideology that can extend beyond regional boundaries. Therefore to NOT consider the reality of Zionism’s influence extending beyond the boundaries of the Middle East is to be myopic at best and deceitful at worse. There is another irritating and disgustingly hypocritical callousness about the “U.S. Imperialism” fallacy. Anti-Zionist and anti-racist leftist who are speaking out have never said that U.S. Imperialism is NOT a factor. The anti-Zionist left has consistently stated that Zionism IS a factor in the War in Iraq and that. Zionism within the United States exercises an inordinate amount of influence on U.S foreign policy. In other words anti-Zionist are exposing and educating the public that Zionism is an important factor of U.S. Imperialism TODAY and that confronting Zionism means CONFRONTING U.S. IMPERIALISM. Confronting Zionism weakens a powerful group and making the public aware of Zionism WITHIN the United States will make people more vigilant of this virulent ideology. Also confronting Zionism expands solidarity with people of color who feel the brunt of racism and the backlash of racism that Zionism effects. To illustrate the absurdity and disgusting hypocrisy of Mr. Jacobs’s rhetoric, as a “radical” of the 1960’s, I’m sure he’s quite familiar with the Civil Rights movement. Now imagine Mr. Jacobs at a coffee shop up in Harlem sitting across Malcolm X telling him that “U.S. Imperialism trumps racism”. In other words, Malcolm X confronted racism as it existed WITHIN the United States. "Progressives" need to do the same regarding Zionism's influence within United States society. Mr. Jacobs takes the position that he doesn’t ignores the role Zionism plays in the Middle East but doesn’t believe it to the “the one and guiding force behind all that is wrong there.” He is presenting an analysis that “[looks] at the broader history of the region and concludes that U.S. Imperialism … play[s] a more important role”. On oil he states that “[t]he The US needs to control energy resources to maintain and expand its dominance.” According to Mr. Jacobs that the need for the U.S. to control oil is written in the neoconservative’s blueprint Project of a New American Century (PNAC) and in neoliberals writings and interprets history from Marx, Luxembourg and Lenin to conclude that “US Imperialism trumps Zionism”.

These seem like reasonable and cogent arguments. Who can argue with … history? Also who can question ones “radicalism” when you name drop Marx, Lenin, and Luxembourg? Essentially Mr. Jacob’s position matches the position of the ISO on the War in Iraq which places the onus on “U.S. Imperialism”. However that argument is specious because it employs a strawman fallacy of “U.S. Imperialism”. This argument instead of enlightening listeners has the opposite effect of redirecting listeners away from confronting extremely important issues of race and power as configured within U.S. society.

Notice that Mr. Jacobs only sees Zionism as a Middle East issue. The problem with that view is that Zionism is an ideology that can extend beyond regional boundaries. Therefore to NOT consider the reality of Zionism’s influence extending beyond the boundaries of the Middle East is to be myopic at best and deceitful at worse.

There is another irritating and disgustingly hypocritical callousness about the “U.S. Imperialism” fallacy. Anti-Zionist and anti-racist leftist who are speaking out have never said that U.S. Imperialism is NOT a factor. The anti-Zionist left has consistently stated that Zionism IS a factor in the War in Iraq and that. Zionism within the United States exercises an inordinate amount of influence on U.S foreign policy. In other words anti-Zionist are exposing and educating the public that Zionism is an important factor of U.S. Imperialism TODAY and that confronting Zionism means CONFRONTING U.S. IMPERIALISM.

Confronting Zionism weakens a powerful group and making the public aware of Zionism WITHIN the United States will make people more vigilant of this virulent ideology. Also confronting Zionism expands solidarity with people of color who feel the brunt of racism and the backlash of racism that Zionism effects.

To illustrate the absurdity and disgusting hypocrisy of Mr. Jacobs’s rhetoric, as a “radical” of the 1960’s, I’m sure he’s quite familiar with the Civil Rights movement. Now imagine Mr. Jacobs at a coffee shop up in Harlem sitting across Malcolm X telling him that “U.S. Imperialism trumps racism”. In other words, Malcolm X confronted racism as it existed WITHIN the United States. “Progressives” need to do the same regarding Zionism’s influence within United States society.

]]> By: Kim Petersen http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11467 Kim Petersen Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:06:34 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11467 Gerald, what I see is that Ron does not deny the role of Zionism in the racist, colonialist expansionism of Israel; he merely grants American imperialism preeminence. You grant Zionism preeminence. Both imperialism and Zionism are rotten to the core. To defeat them both solidarity is requisite for progressives. It is fine to debate the theoretical underpinnings of rotten forces at work in the world, but in the end let’s be respectful of the other person’s views and seek solidarity in overthrowing the rotten forces. That we would all agree that Zionism and imperialism must be overthrown takes precedence over the squabbles of which is a greater evil -- both are evil. Gerald, what I see is that Ron does not deny the role of Zionism in the racist, colonialist expansionism of Israel; he merely grants American imperialism preeminence. You grant Zionism preeminence. Both imperialism and Zionism are rotten to the core. To defeat them both solidarity is requisite for progressives. It is fine to debate the theoretical underpinnings of rotten forces at work in the world, but in the end let’s be respectful of the other person’s views and seek solidarity in overthrowing the rotten forces. That we would all agree that Zionism and imperialism must be overthrown takes precedence over the squabbles of which is a greater evil — both are evil.

]]> By: jaime http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11465 jaime Sat, 22 Dec 2007 21:52:30 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11465 You turkeys sure do a good job of despoiling a nice Christmas story! You turkeys sure do a good job of despoiling a nice Christmas story!

]]> By: gerald spezio http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11455 gerald spezio Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:31:41 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11455 Ron, I can't hear any missle rattling out of big oil in Houston advocating more Iraqi style "regime change" for Iran. Maybe the big oil colossus hasn't paid up their peeyar bill? Why do I hear such virulent and open missle rattling for murder against Iran from Zionists of all stripes.? Do you think that the Zionists are covering for big oil? Ron, I can’t hear any missle rattling out of big oil in Houston advocating more Iraqi style “regime change” for Iran.

Maybe the big oil colossus hasn’t paid up their peeyar bill?

Why do I hear such virulent and open missle rattling for murder against Iran from Zionists of all stripes.?

Do you think that the Zionists are covering for big oil?

]]> By: ron http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11454 ron Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:31:23 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11454 i never said oil was the only reason--you insist that zionism is.... i never said oil was the only reason–you insist that zionism is….

]]> By: gerald spezio http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11449 gerald spezio Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:00:27 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11449 Ron, would a scholar of history and imperialism say what you have just said above? "It syas (sic) so right in noecons paper on the PNAC and in the neoliberals; writings and economic machinations." "It says so right in ..." Therefore, the neocons' and neoliberals' statements must be a truthful presentation of their position without any distortion or mis-direction? "The Iraqis have weapons of mass ...the President said. "It's all about the oil," Greenspan said. How can we doubt HIM? And here is the church and here is the steeple... Ron, would a scholar of history and imperialism say what you have just said above?

“It syas (sic) so right in noecons paper on the PNAC and in the neoliberals; writings and economic machinations.”

“It says so right in …”

Therefore, the neocons’ and neoliberals’ statements must be a truthful presentation of their position without any distortion or mis-direction?

“The Iraqis have weapons of mass …the President said.

“It’s all about the oil,” Greenspan said.

How can we doubt HIM?

And here is the church and here is the steeple…

]]> By: gerald spezio http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11444 gerald spezio Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:40:28 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11444 Do you stand by your published assertion above; “there is no doubt that most of the US political establishment supports Israeli expansion… ” I have plenty of doubts about what you claim is beyond dispute. Do you stand by your published assertion above;

“there is no doubt that most of the US political establishment supports Israeli expansion… ”

I have plenty of doubts about what you claim is beyond dispute.

]]> By: gerald spezio http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11443 gerald spezio Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:35:26 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11443 Anybody who claimed that Zionism was "the one and guiding source of all that is wrong" would be making the same error as claiming that oil was "the one and guiding force ..." Deadbeat has whacked you time and again for such a obvious distortion. Oil 60 per cent, Zionism 40 percent ... Zionism 57.5 per cent; oil 42.5 per cent ... Anybody who claimed that Zionism was “the one and guiding source of all that is wrong” would be making the same error as claiming that oil was “the one and guiding force …”

Deadbeat has whacked you time and again for such a obvious distortion.

Oil 60 per cent, Zionism 40 percent …

Zionism 57.5 per cent; oil 42.5 per cent …

]]> By: ron http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11440 ron Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:15:09 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11440 a couple things (I've said this before but you seem to forget). I do not ignore or disregard the role of Zionism in the middle east--I just don't believe it to be the one and guiding force behind all that is wrong there like you do. Instead, I look at the broader history of the region and conclude that US imperialism and its predecessor British colonialism play a more important role. This conclusion leads me to your next question regarding the role of oil and who controls it. The US needs to control energy resources to maintain and expand its dominance. It syas so right in noecons paper on the PNAC and in the neoliberals; writings and economic machinations. From my interpretation of history--which utilizes Marx, Luxembourg and Lenein (to name a few of the fundamnetals), this means that US imperialism trumps Zionism. People who are obsessed with the role of Zionism refuse to accept this line of thought despite its historical and objective continuity. a couple things (I’ve said this before but you seem to forget). I do not ignore or disregard the role of Zionism in the middle east–I just don’t believe it to be the one and guiding force behind all that is wrong there like you do. Instead, I look at the broader history of the region and conclude that US imperialism and its predecessor British colonialism play a more important role. This conclusion leads me to your next question regarding the role of oil and who controls it. The US needs to control energy resources to maintain and expand its dominance. It syas so right in noecons paper on the PNAC and in the neoliberals; writings and economic machinations. From my interpretation of history–which utilizes Marx, Luxembourg and Lenein (to name a few of the fundamnetals), this means that US imperialism trumps Zionism. People who are obsessed with the role of Zionism refuse to accept this line of thought despite its historical and objective continuity.

]]> By: gerald spezio http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11437 gerald spezio Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:36:29 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11437 Since I have read your articles carefully, I would emphasize one of your most preposterous assertions. On Sept. 18th in your piece claiming it is "really about the oil" you made the bald faced assertion that; "there is no doubt that most of the US political establishment supports Israeli expansion... " If this statement is true, how do you know this? Since I have read your articles carefully, I would emphasize one of your most preposterous assertions.

On Sept. 18th in your piece claiming it is “really about the oil” you made the bald faced assertion that;

“there is no doubt that most of the US political establishment supports Israeli expansion… ”

If this statement is true, how do you know this?

]]> By: gerald spezio http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11436 gerald spezio Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:26:21 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11436 Ron, is it enough to claim that your blatant neglect of the critical role that Zionist propaganda and mis-information are playing to engineer the destruction of Iran forces and objective observer to accuse you of gross negligence or abject ignorance. Ron, is it enough to claim that your blatant neglect of the critical role that Zionist propaganda and mis-information are playing to engineer the destruction of Iran forces and objective observer to accuse you of gross negligence or abject ignorance.

]]> By: gerald spezio http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11435 gerald spezio Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:10:30 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11435 I too am opposed to any attack on Iran. As you know, it is very difficult to know which way some people are blowing into the wind. Let's both work then to insure that innocent Iranians are not murdered as the innocent Iraqis and Palestinians are being maimed & murdered now. Even PZ Myers has posted some of the most foul Muslim bashing on the net. I too am opposed to any attack on Iran.

As you know, it is very difficult to know which way some people are blowing into the wind.

Let’s both work then to insure that innocent Iranians are not murdered as the innocent Iraqis and Palestinians are being maimed & murdered now.

Even PZ Myers has posted some of the most foul Muslim bashing on the net.

]]> By: ron http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11433 ron Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:56:17 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/12/cratched-does-california/#comment-11433 You obviously haven't read most of my pieces on Iran. I always have been and always will be opposed to any attack on Iran. Your remarks don't really merit any response but I felt that I had to clarify my position for those readers who might actually believe your lies. You obviously haven’t read most of my pieces on Iran. I always have been and always will be opposed to any attack on Iran. Your remarks don’t really merit any response but I felt that I had to clarify my position for those readers who might actually believe your lies.

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