Comments on: When Marx Has More Effect Than Hormones http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:01:34 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Marcelle Cendra http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8630 Marcelle Cendra Fri, 09 Nov 2007 03:16:25 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8630 Yes, hp, yes. I was just going over the material my elderly friend is expected to read before taking the drug that her doctor prescribed --a common one-- and after taking the huge volume of words in...I think it's fair to say that today...under "normal" circumstances human insticts are being overridden. One would have to be out of one's mind to ingest a pill which carries with it so many qualifications. And that's exactly what our neighbors and acquaintances (I hope not our "friends") are doing...routinely. Merci for checking in again, hp. Truly, MC Yes, hp, yes. I was just going over the material my elderly friend is expected to read before taking the drug that her doctor prescribed –a common one– and after taking the huge volume of words in…I think it’s fair to say that today…under “normal” circumstances human insticts are being overridden. One would have to be out of one’s mind to ingest a pill which carries with it so many qualifications. And that’s exactly what our neighbors and acquaintances (I hope not our “friends”) are doing…routinely. Merci for checking in again, hp. Truly, MC

]]> By: hp http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8625 hp Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:11:17 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8625 Marcelle, sorry for the delay.. I was merely expanding on your point, "under certain circumstances, normal human instincts can be overridden." Marcelle, sorry for the delay.. I was merely expanding on your point, “under certain circumstances, normal human instincts can be overridden.”

]]> By: Marcelle Cendra http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8577 Marcelle Cendra Wed, 07 Nov 2007 22:55:17 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8577 You don't have to reply to the following response to your most recent comment, Louis (Please don't feel obligated to do so.). I think that if you read my words again, it'll be very clear that neither in the article nor in the attached commentary do I suggest anything along the lines of what you touched upon in your opening line. However, the expression "hash over" was used (appropriately, I feel) because talk about Mexican leaders --whose corruption, etc. is well-known-- serves as a distraction from what was (apparently) not clear: that addressing the culpability of U.S. policies/leaders should be a "first step." That, because --again-- the U.S. holds the cards, for the most part, is --as has been the case historically-- calling most of the shots, has infinitely more influence about what comes down in Mexico these days than the Mexicans themselves. There was not even a hint of suggesting that exploiters from anywhere should receive "sympathy"...in my article or in the commentary. There was only an attribution of relative blame...based on power base, strings held. And all of this is totally germane for dealing with this issue on the basis of class. Merci. --MC You don’t have to reply to the following response to your most recent comment, Louis (Please don’t feel obligated to do so.). I think that if you read my words again, it’ll be very clear that neither in the article nor in the attached commentary do I suggest anything along the lines of what you touched upon in your opening line. However, the expression “hash over” was used (appropriately, I feel) because talk about Mexican leaders –whose corruption, etc. is well-known– serves as a distraction from what was (apparently) not clear: that addressing the culpability of U.S. policies/leaders should be a “first step.” That, because –again– the U.S. holds the cards, for the most part, is –as has been the case historically– calling most of the shots, has infinitely more influence about what comes down in Mexico these days than the Mexicans themselves. There was not even a hint of suggesting that exploiters from anywhere should receive “sympathy”…in my article or in the commentary. There was only an attribution of relative blame…based on power base, strings held. And all of this is totally germane for dealing with this issue on the basis of class. Merci. –MC

]]> By: Louis Godena http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8569 Louis Godena Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:56:07 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8569 Marcelle; Certainly you're not suggesting that if there were no USA, there would be no suffering Mexicans. I know you know better than that. And I don't consider discussing the crimes of rulers anywhere "re-hashing" issues; rather, they are a first step toward identifying and rectifying the plagues that afflict us. Liberals cannot accept that a Mexican exploiter is no more sympathetic than an "American" one. It is not the color of one's skin or one's flag that it important, it is class outlook. If you are a worker, you understand that in a basic visceral way that no intellectual can articulate. Thanks for publishing my comments. I'll let the matter drop there. Marcelle; Certainly you’re not suggesting that if there were no USA, there would be no suffering Mexicans. I know you know better than that. And I don’t consider discussing the crimes of rulers anywhere “re-hashing” issues; rather, they are a first step toward identifying and rectifying the plagues that afflict us. Liberals cannot accept that a Mexican exploiter is no more sympathetic than an “American” one. It is not the color of one’s skin or one’s flag that it important, it is class outlook. If you are a worker, you understand that in a basic visceral way that no intellectual can articulate. Thanks for publishing my comments. I’ll let the matter drop there.

]]> By: Marcelle Cendra http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8536 Marcelle Cendra Wed, 07 Nov 2007 01:55:21 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8536 Dear Louis: There's no need to point out the "malfeasance" of Mexican rulers. That "problem" is a dynamic that goes on everywhere. And to cite it at this juncture is to take you --all of us-- away from the emphasis on class that you want to keep in the spotlight. The immiseration of the Mexicans is certainly a function of both U.S. policies AND rulers in Mexico...and elsewhere. However, as is the case with the vast majority of "basket cases" in the mainstream news, North Americans must carry "the lion's share" --to put it mildly-- of blame. These days. Regardless of history, although the track record on this point for North Americans is abominable, to say the least. Mexican rulers cannot be expected to take the lead. We hold too many cards, they're too corrupt, and if any beam of light began to break in --because we call so many shots (excuse the expression)-- that spark of compassion would be extinguished. With regard to readers of DVoice, I would say that we bear a responsibility to do something to get things more on track on this end --which was one of the reasons for writing the article-- rather than hash over the complicity of crass rulers, upper-class callers of shots who live...elsewhere. For now. -- MC Dear Louis:

There’s no need to point out the “malfeasance” of Mexican rulers. That “problem” is a dynamic that goes on everywhere. And to cite it at this juncture is to take you –all of us– away from the emphasis on class that you want to keep in the spotlight. The immiseration of the Mexicans is certainly a function of both U.S. policies AND rulers in Mexico…and elsewhere. However, as is the case with the vast majority of “basket cases” in the mainstream news, North Americans must carry “the lion’s share” –to put it mildly– of blame. These days. Regardless of history, although the track record on this point for North Americans is abominable, to say the least. Mexican rulers cannot be expected to take the lead. We hold too many cards, they’re too corrupt, and if any beam of light began to break in –because we call so many shots (excuse the expression)– that spark of compassion would be extinguished. With regard to readers of DVoice, I would say that we bear a responsibility to do something to get things more on track on this end –which was one of the reasons for writing the article– rather than hash over the complicity of crass rulers, upper-class callers of shots who live…elsewhere. For now. — MC

]]> By: Louis Godena http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8534 Louis Godena Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:02:08 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8534 Well, I certainly have no quarrel with nationa/racial oppression getting a fair hearing (with commensurate policies to ameliorate as far as practical present day suffering), I do not want to see the central issue of class obscured to the point of obsfucation. That was a favorite trick of liberals during the Cold War; to divide the population along lines of gender, race, sexuality, etc; i.e. anything that would obscure the CLASS issue in our now bifurcated society. As for N. America's malfeasance being the source of immigration from the South, one must also assign a fairly prominent role to the criminalities of ruling groups within the home countries. Mexico is awash in national wealth but, due to the malfeasance of its rulers, little gets to the people who are, in turn, encouraged to go north. Indeed, one could credibly argue that illegal immigration amounts to a subsidy for miscreant "foreign" ruling classes who fail to take even minimal care of their own people. Again, the issue for me is not the downtrodden of a particular color or nation, but the overall class effect of this or that policy; anything that facilitates the destruction of the ruling classes is moral, whatever serves to retard that goal is immoral. Well, I certainly have no quarrel with nationa/racial oppression getting a fair hearing (with commensurate policies to ameliorate as far as practical present day suffering), I do not want to see the central issue of class obscured to the point of obsfucation. That was a favorite trick of liberals during the Cold War; to divide the population along lines of gender, race, sexuality, etc; i.e. anything that would obscure the CLASS issue in our now bifurcated society. As for N. America’s malfeasance being the source of immigration from the South, one must also assign a fairly prominent role to the criminalities of ruling groups within the home countries. Mexico is awash in national wealth but, due to the malfeasance of its rulers, little gets to the people who are, in turn, encouraged to go north. Indeed, one could credibly argue that illegal immigration amounts to a subsidy for miscreant “foreign” ruling classes who fail to take even minimal care of their own people. Again, the issue for me is not the downtrodden of a particular color or nation, but the overall class effect of this or that policy; anything that facilitates the destruction of the ruling classes is moral, whatever serves to retard that goal is immoral.

]]> By: Marcelle Cendra http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8528 Marcelle Cendra Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:26:10 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8528 Dearest Louis: Thanks for commenting. If you re-read the article carefully, you'll see that I did NOT say that N. Americans stole land from the Mexicans, but, rather stole land from both the Mexicans AND indigenous people. In either case, however, the treatment of the victims was not --by any standards-- humane; my source for that comment is American Holocaust, but, of course, there are many reputable, definitive sources delineating the same point. Your opening comment seems to suggest that you missed the whole point of my opening...which was that only for certain out-of-whack individuals did instinct get overridden by political dogma, hatred put love/lust in the wings. Your closing point about class doesn't preclude comments about past racial/"national" injustices...which, apparently, many people are in need of a review of...to get a fuller perspective of how class is established, in part. Dearest Louis:

Thanks for commenting. If you re-read the article carefully, you’ll see that I did NOT say that N. Americans stole land from the Mexicans, but, rather stole land from both the Mexicans AND indigenous people. In either case, however, the treatment of the victims was not –by any standards– humane; my source for that comment is American Holocaust, but, of course, there are many reputable, definitive sources delineating the same point. Your opening comment seems to suggest that you missed the whole point of my opening…which was that only for certain out-of-whack individuals did instinct get overridden by political dogma, hatred put love/lust in the wings. Your closing point about class doesn’t preclude comments about past racial/”national” injustices…which, apparently, many people are in need of a review of…to get a fuller perspective of how class is established, in part.

]]> By: Louis Godena http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8520 Louis Godena Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:13:53 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8520 I'm not sure about "Marx" taking precedence over man's natural instincts. I think a human's innate need to love and be loved and to contribute meaningfully to a larger social whole "overrides", in its visceral power, the rather shallow and ethereal in which capitalism traffics. Your comment about N. Americans sitting atop "stolen" lands sort of bugged me, however. The Mexicans themselves "stole" the bottom of North America from its former inhabitants who "stole" it from whomever preceded them. The N. Americans conquest was practically humane in comparison to any of its predecessors. To speak of past injustices in terms of race or nationality is a dead end and invites comparison with this or that oppressed group's own history and record of malfeasance. The issue of class remains paramount and is in fact the basis of any meaningful struggle for the emancipation of humanity's true essential self. I’m not sure about “Marx” taking precedence over man’s natural instincts. I think a human’s innate need to love and be loved and to contribute meaningfully to a larger social whole “overrides”, in its visceral power, the rather shallow and ethereal in which capitalism traffics. Your comment about N. Americans sitting atop “stolen” lands sort of bugged me, however. The Mexicans themselves “stole” the bottom of North America from its former inhabitants who “stole” it from whomever preceded them. The N. Americans conquest was practically humane in comparison to any of its predecessors. To speak of past injustices in terms of race or nationality is a dead end and invites comparison with this or that oppressed group’s own history and record of malfeasance. The issue of class remains paramount and is in fact the basis of any meaningful struggle for the emancipation of humanity’s true essential self.

]]> By: Marcelle Cendra http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8491 Marcelle Cendra Tue, 06 Nov 2007 01:23:06 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8491 Dearest Deadbeat: I know the Orson (not Orsen) Wells broadcast very well from our Halloween of '38. However, I'm not sure what "hp" was getting at in citing the event. I was asking "hp" to fill me in on what the point was.... Thanks for taking part in this, MC Dearest Deadbeat:

I know the Orson (not Orsen) Wells broadcast very well from our Halloween of ‘38. However, I’m not sure what “hp” was getting at in citing the event. I was asking “hp” to fill me in on what the point was…. Thanks for taking part in this, MC

]]> By: Deadbeat http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8474 Deadbeat Mon, 05 Nov 2007 20:51:40 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8474 He's talking about Orsen Welles famous broadcast of "War of the Worlds" He’s talking about Orsen Welles famous broadcast of “War of the Worlds”

]]> By: Marcelle Cendra http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8464 Marcelle Cendra Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:51:59 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8464 Could "hp" say the same thing another way so I'll get clearer on the point being made? --MC Could “hp” say the same thing another way so I’ll get clearer on the point being made? –MC

]]> By: hp http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8461 hp Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:07:43 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/when-marx-has-more-effect-than-hormones/#comment-8461 Let us not forget the famous broadcast of 1937, from the Mercury theater. Millions of people truly believed mars was attacking and acted like it. for real. Anyone up for another demonstration? 911 maybe? Let us not forget the famous broadcast of 1937, from the Mercury theater.
Millions of people truly believed mars was attacking and acted like it. for real. Anyone up for another demonstration? 911 maybe?

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