Comments on: The Torpedo that Hit the USS Liberty: Made in the USA? http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/ a radical newsletter in the struggle for peace and social justice Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:28:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Eileen Fleming http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-12212 Eileen Fleming Fri, 04 Jan 2008 02:01:25 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-12212 dear Simpleswine, Yes, i do know i made a typo on the John McCain deal- one of the LIBERTY survivors alerted me immediately to it, but as i cannot edit my articles once they are published elsewhere, my limitations follow me. i would love to have an editor HELP me, for i spill thousands of cyber words from my heart and gut nearly daily; but i still work solo and am only human doing the best i can. BUT you are WAY OFF BASE in your assertion: "Face it, anti-semitism, Repub hate, and plain old BDS… that is your true motivator. I’m going to take a wild guess… lib democrat? Naw, don’t answer, it’s obvious." I will answer: You are dead wrong about me simpleswine! I just submitted article 7 in my LIBERTY series to DV a few hours ago and it will BLOW YOUR BS mudslinging anti-semitic canard out of the water. I have NO faith in the democrats to save we the people- we the people better WAKE UP and save ourselves and it begins with regaining COMMON SENSE which Bush's Doctrine of Fear sent MIA : "Soon after I had published the pamphlet "Common Sense" [on Feb. 14, 1776] in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion... The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."-Tom Paine i SAY BYE BYE 2 u with the words the IDF said to me at every checkpoint as i traveled thru OPT "HAVE A NICE DAY" e dear Simpleswine,

Yes, i do know i made a typo on the John McCain deal- one of the LIBERTY survivors alerted me immediately to it, but as i cannot edit my articles once they are published elsewhere, my limitations follow me.

i would love to have an editor HELP me, for i spill thousands of cyber words from my heart and gut nearly daily; but i still work solo and am only human doing the best i can.

BUT you are WAY OFF BASE in your assertion:

“Face it, anti-semitism, Repub hate, and plain old BDS… that is your true motivator. I’m going to take a wild guess… lib democrat?
Naw, don’t answer, it’s obvious.”

I will answer:

You are dead wrong about me simpleswine!

I just submitted article 7 in my LIBERTY series to DV a few hours ago and it will BLOW YOUR BS mudslinging anti-semitic canard out of the water.

I have NO faith in the democrats to save we the people- we the people better WAKE UP and save ourselves and it begins with regaining COMMON SENSE which Bush’s Doctrine of Fear sent MIA :

“Soon after I had published the pamphlet “Common Sense” [on Feb. 14, 1776] in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion… The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.”-Tom Paine

i SAY BYE BYE 2 u with the words the IDF said to me at every checkpoint as i traveled thru OPT

“HAVE A NICE DAY”

e

]]> By: Simpleswine http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-12205 Simpleswine Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:00:23 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-12205 Eileen Fleming said on November 18th, 2007 at 7:48 pm # Thanks for all the input, and am most grateful for what you wrote ‘Deadbeat!’ Dear Jamie and Neal, First off, my main issue is the USA government cover-up and callous and reckless disregard for our Veterans. In checking the Congressional Record you will see the only investigation was the original Naval Court of Inquiry. The Liberty Veterans Association has offered $10,000 reward to anyone who can prove there was ever a Congressional investigation and so far, no takers! The Naval Court of Inquiry was done by two officers under the command of Senator John McCain, Sr. and it was concluded in six days. Wow.. what facts! Well, not really... it was NOT John sr (Admiral McCain), NOR was it John III (that would be Senator McCain)(you know, the guy running for President?).. it WAS John jr (III's daddy, the Admiral).. oh, and III? He was a guest of the VC during the investigation... yawn, nice try though... but it does bring into question the veracity of your "investigation"... a main fact wrong? Face it, anti-semitism, Repub hate, and plain old BDS... that is your true motivator. I'm going to take a wild guess... lib democrat? Naw, don't answer, it's obvious. Eileen Fleming said on November 18th, 2007 at 7:48 pm #

Thanks for all the input, and am most grateful for what you wrote ‘Deadbeat!’

Dear Jamie and Neal,

First off, my main issue is the USA government cover-up and callous and reckless disregard for our Veterans.

In checking the Congressional Record you will see the only investigation was the original Naval Court of Inquiry.

The Liberty Veterans Association has offered $10,000 reward to anyone who can prove there was ever a Congressional investigation and so far, no takers!

The Naval Court of Inquiry was done by two officers under the command of Senator John McCain, Sr. and it was concluded in six days.

Wow.. what facts! Well, not really… it was NOT John sr (Admiral McCain), NOR was it John III (that would be Senator McCain)(you know, the guy running for President?).. it WAS John jr (III’s daddy, the Admiral).. oh, and III? He was a guest of the VC during the investigation… yawn, nice try though… but it does bring into question the veracity of your “investigation”… a main fact wrong?
Face it, anti-semitism, Repub hate, and plain old BDS… that is your true motivator.

I’m going to take a wild guess… lib democrat?
Naw, don’t answer, it’s obvious.

]]> By: hp http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9631 hp Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:13:58 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9631 "By way of deception." I mean c'mon, this is literally carved into stone for all to see. To then deny it, even when caught red handed, is psychopathic. “By way of deception.” I mean c’mon, this is literally carved into stone for all to see.
To then deny it, even when caught red handed, is psychopathic.

]]> By: David http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9518 David Fri, 23 Nov 2007 18:48:00 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9518 Survivor 67', Thank you for 'hitting the nail on the head' in regard to these people who "digress to name calling, deception..." and other verbal chicanery to incite others to stoop to their level. They are the ones with an "agenda"--to try and be as vicious as possible in hopes of "extracting" (as Neal put it) some emotionally inflamed response that could, in turn, be construed as racist or anti-semitic. Their form of argument has no place in the area of civilized public discourse. And the continued use of "accidental" or "phony cause" is simply repugnant and, frankly, embarrasing--for him!! Notice how he ignores the salient facts about the attack? These are facts released by the Israelis themselves!! Two minutes before the attack, several ground control personnel are heard saying, "Americans? Where are there Americans?" Then the murderous attack begins, followed later by an astonishing admission by the fire control officer questioned about the identity of the ship: it's "apparently American". In closing, I find it interesting that a poll taken in Israel (by Haaretz) shows approximately 3/4 of those asked believe the attack WAS DELIBERATE. Again I say to the Liberty survivors: Shalom. Woe unto the shameless naysayers... Survivor 67′,
Thank you for ‘hitting the nail on the head’ in regard to these people who “digress to name calling, deception…” and other verbal chicanery to incite others to stoop to their level. They are the ones with an “agenda”–to try and be as vicious as possible in hopes of “extracting” (as Neal put it) some emotionally inflamed response that could, in turn, be construed as racist or anti-semitic. Their form of argument has no place in the area of civilized public discourse.

And the continued use of “accidental” or “phony cause” is simply repugnant and, frankly, embarrasing–for him!! Notice how he ignores the salient facts about the attack? These are facts released by the Israelis themselves!! Two minutes before the attack, several ground control personnel are heard saying, “Americans? Where are there Americans?” Then the murderous attack begins, followed later by an astonishing admission by the fire control officer questioned about the identity of the ship: it’s “apparently American”.

In closing, I find it interesting that a poll taken in Israel (by Haaretz) shows approximately 3/4 of those asked believe the attack WAS DELIBERATE. Again I say to the Liberty survivors: Shalom. Woe unto the shameless naysayers…

]]> By: Survivor 67 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9505 Survivor 67 Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:52:50 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9505 Before the attack on the Liberty there were no names attached to the survivors hinting that they might be racists with a different agenda. Only after the attack and we wouldn't let them hide the truth did the name calling began. I have never seen it fail on one web site or the other, the discussion usually digresses to name calling, deception, and a real effort to shift the focus of the discussion to some other point that has nothing to do with the attack. I am sure they feel that their mission has been accomplished when that effort sways the subject to a completely different topic. I have been on one site where that was not allowed to happen. The facts were presented, evidence layed out for all to see, and the result was a site that was void of unrelated subjects. You would be surprised at the truth laid bare for all to see. Before the attack on the Liberty there were no names attached to the
survivors hinting that they might be racists with a different agenda.
Only after the attack and we wouldn’t let them hide the truth did the
name calling began. I have never seen it fail on one web site or the
other, the discussion usually digresses to name calling, deception,
and a real effort to shift the focus of the discussion to some other point
that has nothing to do with the attack. I am sure they feel that their
mission has been accomplished when that effort sways the subject to
a completely different topic. I have been on one site where that was
not allowed to happen. The facts were presented, evidence layed out
for all to see, and the result was a site that was void of unrelated
subjects. You would be surprised at the truth laid bare for all to see.

]]> By: Bill Webb http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9454 Bill Webb Thu, 22 Nov 2007 18:04:17 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9454 Ms. Fleming, I THANK YOU for all you do to bring attention to the USS LIBERTY. I am a disabled Navy Vet who served from 7/69 to 7/73. I never heard about the USS LIBERTY until after 9/11 when I too wondered why we were hated so. When I realized that Israel has violated UN res.242 for 40 years, had many UN res. denied by the US and has continued it's Arab land grab and settlement building on occupied land. We didn't allow Saddam to invade Kuwait and grab land yet we allow Israel. It does seem like APARTHEID to many including President Carter. I think every AMERICAN would be fighting any way we could if we were treated as the Palestinians have been. REMEMBER THE LIBERTY Ms. Fleming,
I THANK YOU for all you do to bring attention to the USS LIBERTY. I am a disabled Navy Vet who served from 7/69 to 7/73. I never heard about the USS LIBERTY until after 9/11 when I too wondered why we were hated so. When I realized that Israel has violated UN res.242 for 40 years, had many UN res. denied by the US and has continued it’s Arab land grab and settlement building on occupied land. We didn’t allow Saddam to invade Kuwait and grab land yet we allow Israel. It does seem like APARTHEID to many including President Carter. I think every AMERICAN would be fighting any way we could if we were treated as the Palestinians have been. REMEMBER THE LIBERTY

]]> By: Ken http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9431 Ken Thu, 22 Nov 2007 02:46:52 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9431 The attack was NOT an accident. According to the IDF History Report (the one containing the fake gun camera photos), its air force and navy made a CONSCIOUS DECISION TO ATTACK AN UNIDENTIFIED SHIP, in international waters. A deliberate attack on an unidentified ship in international waters is not an accident -- it's a violation of international maritime law and the laws of war. According to the IDF, the ship was NOT misidentified by the attacking pilots -- it was NEVER identified by the attacking pilots. Later, after the air attack, the Motor Torpedo Boats (MTBs) arrived and the IDF claims two of the three MTB captains misidentified USS Liberty as the Egyptian horse carrier El Quseir, as she rapidly headed north. After several tries, a torpedo finally hit. The ship came to a halt, but it didn't sink. The MTBs continued attacking -- up close and personal -- and, according to the IDF, the MTB captains still didn't realize the ship was American, despite the large American flag and large GTR5 letters on its bow. The ship launched life rafts. The MTBs shot the life rafts full of holes -- not by accident, but on purpose -- a prima facie war crime. Neal, if you chose to believe the IDF's version of events, which appears to be the case, then at the very least the attack was a reckless and wanton act that resulted in the deaths of 34 Americans -- commonly known as Second Degree Murder in many states of the United States. But, alas, the Israeli military judge reviewing charges brought against the attackers, by an Israeli military prosecutor, didn't see this way -- surprise, surprise. War is hell -- especially when it's in the form of a surprise attack, on a clear and sunny day, as you lay sunbathing on the decks of a clearly marked and neutral US Navy auxiliary vessel. The attack was NOT an accident. According to the IDF History Report (the one containing the fake gun camera photos), its air force and navy made a CONSCIOUS DECISION TO ATTACK AN UNIDENTIFIED SHIP, in international waters. A deliberate attack on an unidentified ship in international waters is not an accident — it’s a violation of international maritime law and the laws of war.

According to the IDF, the ship was NOT misidentified by the attacking pilots — it was NEVER identified by the attacking pilots. Later, after the air attack, the Motor Torpedo Boats (MTBs) arrived and the IDF claims two of the three MTB captains misidentified USS Liberty as the Egyptian horse carrier El Quseir, as she rapidly headed north. After several tries, a torpedo finally hit. The ship came to a halt, but it didn’t sink. The MTBs continued attacking — up close and personal — and, according to the IDF, the MTB captains still didn’t realize the ship was American, despite the large American flag and large GTR5 letters on its bow. The ship launched life rafts. The MTBs shot the life rafts full of holes — not by accident, but on purpose — a prima facie war crime.

Neal, if you chose to believe the IDF’s version of events, which appears to be the case, then at the very least the attack was a reckless and wanton act that resulted in the deaths of 34 Americans — commonly known as Second Degree Murder in many states of the United States. But, alas, the Israeli military judge reviewing charges brought against the attackers, by an Israeli military prosecutor, didn’t see this way — surprise, surprise.

War is hell — especially when it’s in the form of a surprise attack, on a clear and sunny day, as you lay sunbathing on the decks of a clearly marked and neutral US Navy auxiliary vessel.

]]> By: Neal http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9411 Neal Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:29:09 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9411 To David, See my point above. I am not against compensation for and recognition of the suffering of people harmed by the horrors of war. But, I am against people trying to make phony, political hay out of an accident, claiming it to be deliberate - not because it was but in order to vent their bigoted views about Israel and Jews. Again, I do appreciate that those harmed have rights. I do not, however, respect how Ms. Fleming wishes to exploit an accident for her political views that support the marchers in Durban. Such Durban marchers were bigots who carried "Kill the Jews" signs - and note above that she explicitly cites her approval for the Durban "human rights" conference, perhaps the lowest point in the history of the "human rights" movement -. Such people at Durban were not seeking justice and human rights. They are seeking revenge. So, I oppose her brief for those killed on the Liberty which, to me, is her phony brief. Her real agenda is stated in the comments, as we managed to extract from her. Again: the events at Durban were a moral travesty, a regular hatefest under the banner of human rights. Those marchers are to human rights what the reign of terror was to the French revolution. A nightmare. To David,

See my point above. I am not against compensation for and recognition of the suffering of people harmed by the horrors of war. But, I am against people trying to make phony, political hay out of an accident, claiming it to be deliberate - not because it was but in order to vent their bigoted views about Israel and Jews.

Again, I do appreciate that those harmed have rights. I do not, however, respect how Ms. Fleming wishes to exploit an accident for her political views that support the marchers in Durban. Such Durban marchers were bigots who carried “Kill the Jews” signs - and note above that she explicitly cites her approval for the Durban “human rights” conference, perhaps the lowest point in the history of the “human rights” movement -.

Such people at Durban were not seeking justice and human rights. They are seeking revenge. So, I oppose her brief for those killed on the Liberty which, to me, is her phony brief. Her real agenda is stated in the comments, as we managed to extract from her. Again: the events at Durban were a moral travesty, a regular hatefest under the banner of human rights. Those marchers are to human rights what the reign of terror was to the French revolution. A nightmare.

]]> By: David http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9408 David Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:10:15 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9408 To Neal and Jaime: words really cannot express the shame I feel, as a Jew and an American, when I read the terribly callous and hurtful remarks made against these brave men. Can't you see that all they are looking for is TRUTH and JUSTICE? And to refer to these brave men as "bigots" is a shameful example of an ad hominem attack. Are you even aware that there were American Jews killed on that ship? Please try to put yourself in their position and see how you would feel... To those men still fighting for 40 years, I say "Shalom" to you all. You are fighting for justice which is richly deserved. To Neal and Jaime: words really cannot express the shame I feel, as a Jew and an American, when I read the terribly callous and hurtful remarks made against these brave men. Can’t you see that all they are looking for is TRUTH and JUSTICE? And to refer to these brave men as “bigots” is a shameful example of an ad hominem attack. Are you even aware that there were American Jews killed on that ship? Please try to put yourself in their position and see how you would feel…

To those men still fighting for 40 years, I say “Shalom” to you all. You are fighting for justice which is richly deserved.

]]> By: Neal http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9400 Neal Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:37:05 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9400 To the comment immediately above: "Dissident Voice : Seconding Captain McGonagle’s Two Word Epithet." I have no problem compensating people for their losses. I do have a problem with people who would manipulate these real losses into a phony cause. To the comment immediately above: “Dissident Voice : Seconding Captain McGonagle’s Two Word Epithet.”

I have no problem compensating people for their losses. I do have a problem with people who would manipulate these real losses into a phony cause.

]]> By: Neal http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9382 Neal Wed, 21 Nov 2007 02:15:57 +0000 http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-torpedo-that-hit-the-uss-liberty-made-in-the-usa/#comment-9382 Ms. Fleming, The problem with your point of view is that it ignores the legitimate concerns of the Israelis, which - no matter what you claim, largely out of profound ignorance - are real. In your lexicon, a soldier - which is what Palestinians who attack Israelis actually are - who intentionally breaks into a "settlement" - in English, a village - and massacres civilians living in that village is a "hopeless militant." No, Eileen. The person is a war criminal who is acting on the orders of a leader who is a war criminal. And, I might add: if you examine traditional just war theory, you will see that the very strategy adopted by Palestinian Arabs is unjust and illegitimate. No. Hoping to end "occupation" does not make it alright to make civilians the target of first choice. Massacring civilians is the tactic of barbarians, not people worthy of support. Now, that should not be read as my supporting Israel's position regarding how it rules Palestinian Arabs or where it wants Israelis to live. It is, rather, my statement that civilians are not a legitimate target and that people who support those with that point of view are, in my view, hypocrites and, in most instances, anti-Jewish bigots. Consider that your "hopeless" militants are, to Israelis, people who commit massacres and not by accident but with premeditation. The evidence that such is the case is overwhelming . In fact, the Hamas leadership has bragged about that to the extent that the New York Times has quoted the leadership on its use of such tactics and on its plans to ethnically cleanse the region of Jews, just as Arab Muslims have done throughout the Arab regions. Now, you seem to think that this is all a simple thing. It is not. There are rights and wrongs all around. Saying, as you do, that you want peace and justice ought to suggest to you that justice is not a one way street. Again: we have the Palestinian leadership which refused to accept in December of 2000, in the face of President Clinton, the publicly stated position of the PLO. That, as Prince Bandar notes, means that all of the blood that has been spilt since is on the head of Arafat and those who were silent about what he allowed to occur. Now, if you want to understand this dispute a bit better, I suggest you consider that the reason that Arafat refused his own position is that his population is not ready to settle the dispute. And, that is because they think they have, in the long term, the upper hand. And that comes from seeing 300 million Arabs and 5 million Jews. Were I on their side, I would see the matter that way also. Hence, they take the view that by creating an unbearable situation for the Israelis, they will eventually force a crisis among the Israeli population in which they simply lose the will to defend themselves. I might add: there is historical precedent for such approach, such being a traditional tactic employed by Middle Easterners in their many wars. What is rather awful about the war against Israel is that non-Middle Easterners who know exactly nothing about that part of the world (e.g. maybe you) project their own issues onto Middle Easterners. Consider your comment about getting to understand why 9/11 occurred. To get to the bottom of that, you need to read what those in the Jihadist movement say to each other - not what they direct to us for propaganda purposes. Frankly, their main concern is not Israel, which they call a mere "petty" state. Which is to say, Israel is a greater concern to you than to them. Their main concern is to restore Islamic military and political power, to eliminate Western, non-Muslim, cultural influence over Muslims and, in the end, to create circumstances where Muslims will have a realistic opportunity for conquest. If you do not believe that, then trying reading some books where they express their opinions to each other. You will see that I am correct.